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Interesting article

I have just read an interesting interview with Soren Petersen, senior vice president and general manager of Nokia's CDMA business. You can read it here.

Looks like nokia is not very happy about BREW, and I wouldn't agree on most of the things this guy said about BREW.

For example he says about BREW that:

"It’s not an attractive development environment, and you can see that in the number of developers who are working on it. You have a couple of thousand developers globally, and you’re up against two to three million Java developers, and the tools are crude in comparison."

Why didn't he compare number of J2ME developers with number of C++ developers?

I was just wondering what are your opinions on this subject.

Zim

Quote:And Nokia comes from a different perspective, we don’t build our market cap based on technology taxation, we build it on attractive handsets
:rolleyes:

Quote:And Nokia comes from a different perspective, we don’t build our market cap based on technology taxation, we build it on attractive handsets
:rolleyes:

Interview of "Soren Petersen" is a typical marketing propaganda without much merit.
From my perspective,
Nobody is different, every company in the world wants to be monopoly. If you are the loser you complain. Not always, but very often most of the higher management talks stupid stuff with much value in it.
I as an engineer value innovation. Too much of imposition standard often stymed little guys innovative work. That's where the wireless industry in Europe and America differs.
Incompatibility and instability in WCDMA (GSM 3G standard) well, it is pretty well known. I would rather perfer US govt style hands off approach than EU heavy handed imposition of standards in science and technology(e.g. wireless industry).
ruben

Interview of "Soren Petersen" is a typical marketing propaganda without much merit.
From my perspective,
Nobody is different, every company in the world wants to be monopoly. If you are the loser you complain. Not always, but very often most of the higher management talks stupid stuff with much value in it.
I as an engineer value innovation. Too much of imposition standard often stymed little guys innovative work. That's where the wireless industry in Europe and America differs.
Incompatibility and instability in WCDMA (GSM 3G standard) well, it is pretty well known. I would rather perfer US govt style hands off approach than EU heavy handed imposition of standards in science and technology(e.g. wireless industry).
ruben

i agree with some of it, but its obvious theres some market spin going on.
Brew isn't all that big yet, but they are expanding.
I'm worried the underlying design of brew will heavily limit it though, be interested to see what they come up with.
Anyones whos developed seriously on j2me knows that there are lots of problems on there as well, but there are more tools available.
He didn't compare the number of j2me against c++ developers, because thats a nonsensical measure and contains no useful information.

i agree with some of it, but its obvious theres some market spin going on.
Brew isn't all that big yet, but they are expanding.
I'm worried the underlying design of brew will heavily limit it though, be interested to see what they come up with.
Anyones whos developed seriously on j2me knows that there are lots of problems on there as well, but there are more tools available.
He didn't compare the number of j2me against c++ developers, because thats a nonsensical measure and contains no useful information.

... but comparing number of java developers with number of brew developers doesn't make any sense either, does it?
zim

... but comparing number of java developers with number of brew developers doesn't make any sense either, does it?
zim

depends if he compared the number of java developers or j2me developers, since one is a pointless comparison and the other isn't, at least in as much as determining market share. from your original comment, it said j2me so i went with that.
you can compare j2me, brew , symbian and mophun with each other, but you wouldn't include cobol or c++, since it doesn't tell you anything useful.
regards

depends if he compared the number of java developers or j2me developers, since one is a pointless comparison and the other isn't, at least in as much as determining market share. from your original comment, it said j2me so i went with that.
you can compare j2me, brew , symbian and mophun with each other, but you wouldn't include cobol or c++, since it doesn't tell you anything useful.
regards

well, i guess he used number of java developers rather than j2me developers:
"two to three million Java developers"
I don't think there are 3 milion j2me developers out there...
zim

well, i guess he used number of java developers rather than j2me developers:
"two to three million Java developers"
I don't think there are 3 milion j2me developers out there...
zim

This interview is kind of funny.
First he blames Qualcomm for the fact that Nokia made one of the single worst BREW handsets on the face of the planet. (3589i)
Secondly, he criticizes Qualcomm's "toolbooth" business model--yet that's the exact same business model they have with their super hyped up N-Gage (well the non Java stuff).

This interview is kind of funny.
First he blames Qualcomm for the fact that Nokia made one of the single worst BREW handsets on the face of the planet. (3589i)
Secondly, he criticizes Qualcomm's "toolbooth" business model--yet that's the exact same business model they have with their super hyped up N-Gage (well the non Java stuff).

I said it before and I'll say it again. Nokia are just a bunch of wanna-bes in many aspects. Just because they dominate the handset market they believe they know everything, which is ridiculous. I am still SOOOO entertained by the bomb that was NGage. I told them beforehand it would happen because it was such a flawed design but they wouldn't want to hear it, and now I feel really good watching it die a slow death.
The guys at Nokia need to get off their high horse for a while and smell the coffee some time.
Brew is far from being perfect and has a lot of issues that should be addressed, but I'm really tired of Nokia's elitist attitude that permeates everything they say, everything they write and everything they produce these days.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Nokia are just a bunch of wanna-bes in many aspects. Just because they dominate the handset market they believe they know everything, which is ridiculous. I am still SOOOO entertained by the bomb that was NGage. I told them beforehand it would happen because it was such a flawed design but they wouldn't want to hear it, and now I feel really good watching it die a slow death.
The guys at Nokia need to get off their high horse for a while and smell the coffee some time.
Brew is far from being perfect and has a lot of issues that should be addressed, but I'm really tired of Nokia's elitist attitude that permeates everything they say, everything they write and everything they produce these days.

I agree with what you said, and I think that N-Gage is not the only example. They have tried to be innovative with their Nokia 3650, but I wonder if they did any marketing research before launching this phone. Everyone I know says that the "innovative" keypad is just impossible to use, and the phone just look stupid. Well, I am not surprised that this phone is just not selling very well....
I also think that it's quite funny that Soren Petersen is trying to blame BREW for their own problems. I don't know BREW from manufacturer's point of view, but considering differences between different BREW phones I assume that manufacturers have a lot of flexibility and it's up to them if they make really good or really bad product.
From programmer's point of view BREW is a well defined set of APIs, while I can't say that about Symbian. They provide lots of classes which are supposed to be useful. They invented lots of "better" ways of doing almost everything, from exception handling to naming conventions. And in result it's hard to define a boundary between application's code and Symbian API. I saw lots of Symbian projects which were completely unmaintanable, unstable and in addition unportable to any other platform.
zim

I agree with what you said, and I think that N-Gage is not the only example. They have tried to be innovative with their Nokia 3650, but I wonder if they did any marketing research before launching this phone. Everyone I know says that the "innovative" keypad is just impossible to use, and the phone just look stupid. Well, I am not surprised that this phone is just not selling very well....
I also think that it's quite funny that Soren Petersen is trying to blame BREW for their own problems. I don't know BREW from manufacturer's point of view, but considering differences between different BREW phones I assume that manufacturers have a lot of flexibility and it's up to them if they make really good or really bad product.
From programmer's point of view BREW is a well defined set of APIs, while I can't say that about Symbian. They provide lots of classes which are supposed to be useful. They invented lots of "better" ways of doing almost everything, from exception handling to naming conventions. And in result it's hard to define a boundary between application's code and Symbian API. I saw lots of Symbian projects which were completely unmaintanable, unstable and in addition unportable to any other platform.
zim

I totally agree with ruben when he says
Quote:Too much of imposition standard often stymed little guys innovative work. That's where the wireless industry in Europe and America differs
But
Quote:Nokia are just a bunch of wanna-bes in many aspects. Just because they dominate the handset market they believe they know everything, which is ridiculous
Okay the "innovative" aspects of Nokia can be discussed during hours, but they have a HUGE market and making much more money than Qualcomm.
They do not know everything, but at least they know how to make money, with phones or indirectly with symbian. And they are quite popular since everyone can try to make his own j2me/symbian application, and i guess that's the main point in the nokia/j2me/symbian-brew "war". Nokia blames qualcomm to take profit for everything, and i personnaly think it's true, but flaming for that without good reasons is another point. And Nokia should'nt talk about phones "stability" hehe :rolleyes:
In developer perspective, Brew vs Symbian is a good point (both have their own advantages), but j2me is something good aswell, and i'm waiting to see how a java application will run on top of brew. Nokia has much more experience on developing API for java phones, and it's a real pleasure to develop for them.
/kUfa
PS: yeah the 3650 is CRAP (but fast..)

I totally agree with ruben when he says
Quote:Too much of imposition standard often stymed little guys innovative work. That's where the wireless industry in Europe and America differs
But
Quote:Nokia are just a bunch of wanna-bes in many aspects. Just because they dominate the handset market they believe they know everything, which is ridiculous
Okay the "innovative" aspects of Nokia can be discussed during hours, but they have a HUGE market and making much more money than Qualcomm.
They do not know everything, but at least they know how to make money, with phones or indirectly with symbian. And they are quite popular since everyone can try to make his own j2me/symbian application, and i guess that's the main point in the nokia/j2me/symbian-brew "war". Nokia blames qualcomm to take profit for everything, and i personnaly think it's true, but flaming for that without good reasons is another point. And Nokia should'nt talk about phones "stability" hehe :rolleyes:
In developer perspective, Brew vs Symbian is a good point (both have their own advantages), but j2me is something good aswell, and i'm waiting to see how a java application will run on top of brew. Nokia has much more experience on developing API for java phones, and it's a real pleasure to develop for them.
/kUfa
PS: yeah the 3650 is CRAP (but fast..)

the 6820 i keep hearing people talk about, anyone used one yet?
i think mophun is the best designed for games out there, its a lot better than brew, symbian is the typical i love C++ but i don't know where to stop, once you get around all the gubbins and get it working in a simle framework its really fast. j2me is well just java :)
something ala GAPI in brew would be a fine thing, but seems unlikely given their arch, which is where i think the major downfall for games is, the API is overly complex so they have lots of bugs across versions and handsets, and i bet the stuff thats hardest to develop, is the least used.

the 6820 i keep hearing people talk about, anyone used one yet?
i think mophun is the best designed for games out there, its a lot better than brew, symbian is the typical i love C++ but i don't know where to stop, once you get around all the gubbins and get it working in a simle framework its really fast. j2me is well just java :)
something ala GAPI in brew would be a fine thing, but seems unlikely given their arch, which is where i think the major downfall for games is, the API is overly complex so they have lots of bugs across versions and handsets, and i bet the stuff thats hardest to develop, is the least used.