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I was wondering if there was any way that I can load a BREW application I'm developing onto my t720 without having to go though the "Authorized developer" hassel.. I really don't want to pay $400 for a verisign ID for a simple app I'm writing for my own use. Can anyone point me to some usefull documentation?

Thanks!

Jeff Lange

Your phone must be enabled to support test signatures, and then there is special BREW TestSig Generator tool available on BREW Developer Extranet. To enable the phone to work with test signatures you must send it to Qualcomm.

Your phone must be enabled to support test signatures, and then there is special BREW TestSig Generator tool available on BREW Developer Extranet. To enable the phone to work with test signatures you must send it to Qualcomm.

Quote:Originally posted by ziemowit
Your phone must be enabled to support test signatures, and then there is special BREW TestSig Generator tool available on BREW Developer Extranet. To enable the phone to work with test signatures you must send it to Qualcomm.
But to do all these, you need to be an authenticated developer.:D
Regards
Arun Bangari

Quote:Originally posted by ziemowit
Your phone must be enabled to support test signatures, and then there is special BREW TestSig Generator tool available on BREW Developer Extranet. To enable the phone to work with test signatures you must send it to Qualcomm.
But to do all these, you need to be an authenticated developer.:D
Regards
Arun Bangari

Yes, but when you use test signature you don't need to purchase Verisign Id so you save at least $400 :-)

Yes, but when you use test signature you don't need to purchase Verisign Id so you save at least $400 :-)

Quote:Yes, but when you use test signature you don't need to purchase Verisign Id so you save at least $400
You cannot obtain a test signature unless you have access to the BREW Developer's Extranet.
You cannot access the Extranet without first obtaining a Verisign document ID -- i.e. as Arun said, you must first be authenticated. This costs $400.
Unless an authenticated developer is willing to give you a test signature from his/her own limited supply, there is no way around the authentication requirement if you want to run code on a phone. Note that a test signature is only good for 90 days.

Quote:Yes, but when you use test signature you don't need to purchase Verisign Id so you save at least $400
You cannot obtain a test signature unless you have access to the BREW Developer's Extranet.
You cannot access the Extranet without first obtaining a Verisign document ID -- i.e. as Arun said, you must first be authenticated. This costs $400.
Unless an authenticated developer is willing to give you a test signature from his/her own limited supply, there is no way around the authentication requirement if you want to run code on a phone. Note that a test signature is only good for 90 days.

Also, depending on your level in the Brew Extranet you may only create testsigs for x number of phones. I believe it was something like ~9 unique phone at the entry level.

Also, depending on your level in the Brew Extranet you may only create testsigs for x number of phones. I believe it was something like ~9 unique phone at the entry level.

I downloaded the SDK and there are few interesting examples that I'd like to download on my phone. How can that be done?

I downloaded the SDK and there are few interesting examples that I'd like to download on my phone. How can that be done?

Firstly u should be an authenticated developer. coz the tools required to load your application to phone is available only for authenticated developers. Second your phone should be test enabled. You can find more info on BREW website.

Firstly u should be an authenticated developer. coz the tools required to load your application to phone is available only for authenticated developers. Second your phone should be test enabled. You can find more info on BREW website.

You have to pay 400 dollars before you can upload to your own phone? Isn't there a free way to do this?

You have to pay 400 dollars before you can upload to your own phone? Isn't there a free way to do this?

One of the great things about BREW is that they have made an intelligent balance between what is free and what costs. If you make everything free, then you have no market and there is no business. $400 is a small price to pay if you plan on developing professionally; however, its a fairly large price if you are planning on giving away software for free.

One of the great things about BREW is that they have made an intelligent balance between what is free and what costs. If you make everything free, then you have no market and there is no business. $400 is a small price to pay if you plan on developing professionally; however, its a fairly large price if you are planning on giving away software for free.

Please excuse my tight-fistedness, but I'm a Java MIDP developer, and not used to parting with cash for the privilege of developing software...
It's looking increasing like it's necessary to part with at least $400 to develop for BREW, short of begging, borrowing or stealing the required software tools from other people... I'd be grateful if someone could tell me what is the least I have to pay? Am I going to get stung repeatedly for more and more "necessities" down the line?
Cheers,
Graham.

Please excuse my tight-fistedness, but I'm a Java MIDP developer, and not used to parting with cash for the privilege of developing software...
It's looking increasing like it's necessary to part with at least $400 to develop for BREW, short of begging, borrowing or stealing the required software tools from other people... I'd be grateful if someone could tell me what is the least I have to pay? Am I going to get stung repeatedly for more and more "necessities" down the line?
Cheers,
Graham.

The biggest costs are testing costs required by the carriers before launching your application. The formula is a bit complex, but its either $1000 or $250 per phone per application, depending on how its architected.
-Aaron

The biggest costs are testing costs required by the carriers before launching your application. The formula is a bit complex, but its either $1000 or $250 per phone per application, depending on how its architected.
-Aaron

gr8 way to earn $
to develope app you pay $
to test you pay $
you have to pay a part of $ you get for app to qualcomm
carrier pays $ to qualcomm
OEM pay $ to qualcomm
.
.
.
.
.
sdg

gr8 way to earn $
to develope app you pay $
to test you pay $
you have to pay a part of $ you get for app to qualcomm
carrier pays $ to qualcomm
OEM pay $ to qualcomm
.
.
.
.
.
sdg

BREW is meant for professional. Everyone has chance to earn money and if you have good application you as an application developer can earn good amount of money.
Usually multimillion doller carrier does not have time or system to deal with individual application developer, and that's where BREW comes into place.
It is not like Symbian phone, where piracy is so rampant that you really cann't make much money.
ruben

BREW is meant for professional. Everyone has chance to earn money and if you have good application you as an application developer can earn good amount of money.
Usually multimillion doller carrier does not have time or system to deal with individual application developer, and that's where BREW comes into place.
It is not like Symbian phone, where piracy is so rampant that you really cann't make much money.
ruben

ok...
i missed that....
u develope a gr8 app an d get gr8 $ for it...
sdg

ok...
i missed that....
u develope a gr8 app an d get gr8 $ for it...
sdg

j2me developers are just getting away with a free ride.
just be thankful you don't develop for consoles, where it can cost tens of thousands just to get started :)
you can use gcc, the annual $400 is for the verisign certificate, which goes some way to show intent as a serious developer, though how much is questionable, and you don't absolutely have to have it.
qualcomm doesn't actually charge you to develop a game for brew, the money goes to verisign, same as if you had ssl certificates etc.
they do charge for conformance testing, as do most places, which technically is part of the development cycle.
if people think qualcomm are making money off developers during development of a game, i have a nice bridge for sale, one owner only.

j2me developers are just getting away with a free ride.
just be thankful you don't develop for consoles, where it can cost tens of thousands just to get started :)
you can use gcc, the annual $400 is for the verisign certificate, which goes some way to show intent as a serious developer, though how much is questionable, and you don't absolutely have to have it.
qualcomm doesn't actually charge you to develop a game for brew, the money goes to verisign, same as if you had ssl certificates etc.
they do charge for conformance testing, as do most places, which technically is part of the development cycle.
if people think qualcomm are making money off developers during development of a game, i have a nice bridge for sale, one owner only.

but you do need the developer authentication to get the brew tools for gcc.

but you do need the developer authentication to get the brew tools for gcc.

Well, you'd need the developer authentication to download BREW Tools and submit to NSTL as well, so there's just no avoiding that one.

Well, you'd need the developer authentication to download BREW Tools and submit to NSTL as well, so there's just no avoiding that one.

you can avoid it, you get a publisher

you can avoid it, you get a publisher

There you go, there are no barriers to developing in BREW. You just have to find a publisher. :)

There you go, there are no barriers to developing in BREW. You just have to find a publisher. :)

Of course, as a rule, publishers are fairly keen on you being a BREW developer already...
...and you still need to register with Verisign, because you cannot get the tools from Qualcomm without registration... unless charliex knows of publishers who routinely violate their license agreement with Qualcomm and pass on tools and documentation to would-be developers?
The point to my original question was really that there are various hurdles to be jumped in becoming a BREW developer, and it's a little tricky to be confident of having found a complete list. Entry in to the world of MIDP Java is easy - you can get all the tools and docs free of charge, develop the skills, develop products, then begin the process of selling them without much financial commitment. Entry to the world of BREW is not so simple.
The cost seems not so large for a company based in the US or Western Europe. But for an individual who wants to build the skill set and sell himself on the employment market, it's not so trivial. A person in that situation does not need the testing or distribution facilities, just enough kit and info to develop and app and stick it on his own phone.
So far as I have discovered, the only necessary cost to begin developing is the $400 Verisign fee. I was a bit concerned when I then discovered the need for a separate ARM compiler (at $1500!) before anything goes on a phone... but the GNU kit seems to be OK.
> qualcomm doesn't actually charge you to develop a game for brew, the money goes to verisign
... it seems that you must pay this to get the tools, and it is as Qualcomm's insistence... it doesn't really matter where the money goes, it comes out of the developer's pocket either way.
Graham.

Of course, as a rule, publishers are fairly keen on you being a BREW developer already...
...and you still need to register with Verisign, because you cannot get the tools from Qualcomm without registration... unless charliex knows of publishers who routinely violate their license agreement with Qualcomm and pass on tools and documentation to would-be developers?
The point to my original question was really that there are various hurdles to be jumped in becoming a BREW developer, and it's a little tricky to be confident of having found a complete list. Entry in to the world of MIDP Java is easy - you can get all the tools and docs free of charge, develop the skills, develop products, then begin the process of selling them without much financial commitment. Entry to the world of BREW is not so simple.
The cost seems not so large for a company based in the US or Western Europe. But for an individual who wants to build the skill set and sell himself on the employment market, it's not so trivial. A person in that situation does not need the testing or distribution facilities, just enough kit and info to develop and app and stick it on his own phone.
So far as I have discovered, the only necessary cost to begin developing is the $400 Verisign fee. I was a bit concerned when I then discovered the need for a separate ARM compiler (at $1500!) before anything goes on a phone... but the GNU kit seems to be OK.
> qualcomm doesn't actually charge you to develop a game for brew, the money goes to verisign
... it seems that you must pay this to get the tools, and it is as Qualcomm's insistence... it doesn't really matter where the money goes, it comes out of the developer's pocket either way.
Graham.

Your costs only go from here:
ARM Compiler - $1,500 (they say you can use the free GCC, but it doesn't quite do the job)
So then you think, ok, I'll use the resources at the Brew labs and the Tech support if I have questions. They offer computers with the ARM compiler and some of the handsets (not all) for your test/debug effort.
Well - Brew labs are now going to be $500/day plus additional costs for Support questions.
THen you have to pay $1000 for the NSTL (True Brew) test - and you have to pass it - if you fail and not submit in time, guess what?
From my experience, it takes about 12 hours to go through all of the NSTL requirements on one handset one application - if you do it at the Brew labs, it will be at least another $1000 - and that's if your app works perfectly.
THen you have to have the handset(s) -
Get the picture:confused:

Your costs only go from here:
ARM Compiler - $1,500 (they say you can use the free GCC, but it doesn't quite do the job)
So then you think, ok, I'll use the resources at the Brew labs and the Tech support if I have questions. They offer computers with the ARM compiler and some of the handsets (not all) for your test/debug effort.
Well - Brew labs are now going to be $500/day plus additional costs for Support questions.
THen you have to pay $1000 for the NSTL (True Brew) test - and you have to pass it - if you fail and not submit in time, guess what?
From my experience, it takes about 12 hours to go through all of the NSTL requirements on one handset one application - if you do it at the Brew labs, it will be at least another $1000 - and that's if your app works perfectly.
THen you have to have the handset(s) -
Get the picture:confused:

Yes yes ... BREW development is horribly expensive ... umm .. and difficult too! Yeah .. it's not worth it ... move on ... nothing more to see here ...
OK - Let's lay this out for real:
1. You need at least one handset ($80 or so + service agreement for a VX6000, or ~$200 and no service agreement for a pre-pay T720).
2. You need to get that handset test enabled (free + shipping).
3. You need an ARM compiler. GCC is free, ADS has a free 45 day eval. Or you can spend $1500 (if you're a BREW developer) to own ADS.
4. Spend $400 on Verisign to become a BREW developer, or if you're going through a publisher they can set you up with extranet access so you can get access to spec sheets and device tools (finding one to do this may be a bit harder, but that's only because it's been a pain to get Qualcomm to set it up in the past).
5. Spend $1000 for your NSTL submission of your first app. If you're going through a publisher, this fee is usually absorbed by them but that's all a function of the royalties you're getting, etc.
Minimum cost for first app through publisher - $80 + service agreement.
Maximum cost for self-publishing - ~$3000 + $250 per additional handset submission fee (if you build your app right) + handset purchase cost (if you want to test .. which I would strongly suggest).
If you can't afford the cost of self-publishing then look at the different apps up on Verizon, find the developers/publishers that did them and see if they want to absorb those costs for a cut of the profits (publish the game). I'm sure they'll have different requirements for the types of things they'll publish, and what you'll need to do to get them interested, but my best suggestion would be to get your game to first playable in the emulator before chasing them down. That way they'll have a good idea what they're dealing with.
In general you'll get better royalty rates from the smaller publishers than you will from the large ones like JAMDAT, THQ, mForma, etc.
Tom

Yes yes ... BREW development is horribly expensive ... umm .. and difficult too! Yeah .. it's not worth it ... move on ... nothing more to see here ...
OK - Let's lay this out for real:
1. You need at least one handset ($80 or so + service agreement for a VX6000, or ~$200 and no service agreement for a pre-pay T720).
2. You need to get that handset test enabled (free + shipping).
3. You need an ARM compiler. GCC is free, ADS has a free 45 day eval. Or you can spend $1500 (if you're a BREW developer) to own ADS.
4. Spend $400 on Verisign to become a BREW developer, or if you're going through a publisher they can set you up with extranet access so you can get access to spec sheets and device tools (finding one to do this may be a bit harder, but that's only because it's been a pain to get Qualcomm to set it up in the past).
5. Spend $1000 for your NSTL submission of your first app. If you're going through a publisher, this fee is usually absorbed by them but that's all a function of the royalties you're getting, etc.
Minimum cost for first app through publisher - $80 + service agreement.
Maximum cost for self-publishing - ~$3000 + $250 per additional handset submission fee (if you build your app right) + handset purchase cost (if you want to test .. which I would strongly suggest).
If you can't afford the cost of self-publishing then look at the different apps up on Verizon, find the developers/publishers that did them and see if they want to absorb those costs for a cut of the profits (publish the game). I'm sure they'll have different requirements for the types of things they'll publish, and what you'll need to do to get them interested, but my best suggestion would be to get your game to first playable in the emulator before chasing them down. That way they'll have a good idea what they're dealing with.
In general you'll get better royalty rates from the smaller publishers than you will from the large ones like JAMDAT, THQ, mForma, etc.
Tom

That is true, and that is why the publishers are there... the point is that Qualcomm promotes the Brew framework as this idea that any developer can easily get their apps published and rake in the 80% of the revenue.
So now, if you're the small guy, and you want to get your app published, you are pretty much forced to go through a publisher and give up part of that 80%, and you're no longer negotiating your deal with Verizon, but the publisher - not sure actually which is worse.
It just seems counter to what I remember hearing at the early Brew Conferences, etc

That is true, and that is why the publishers are there... the point is that Qualcomm promotes the Brew framework as this idea that any developer can easily get their apps published and rake in the 80% of the revenue.
So now, if you're the small guy, and you want to get your app published, you are pretty much forced to go through a publisher and give up part of that 80%, and you're no longer negotiating your deal with Verizon, but the publisher - not sure actually which is worse.
It just seems counter to what I remember hearing at the early Brew Conferences, etc

Things have changed since the early BREW conference. The biggest thing is that Qualcomm is no longer subsidizing the testing fees, so it now costs many thousands of $$$ more to get an app out on a lot of handsets.
Prior to the first fee change, it was very reasonable for small developers, but the cost was getting high for Qualcomm and they no longer need to subsidize things because they have plenty of people wanting to develop for the platform. You could say that they had too many because they were getting a lot of bad submissions and they were eating the costs.
Personally, I don't mind that they've increased the barrier to entry as it makes my life better since I'm already "in" ;)
Tom

Things have changed since the early BREW conference. The biggest thing is that Qualcomm is no longer subsidizing the testing fees, so it now costs many thousands of $$$ more to get an app out on a lot of handsets.
Prior to the first fee change, it was very reasonable for small developers, but the cost was getting high for Qualcomm and they no longer need to subsidize things because they have plenty of people wanting to develop for the platform. You could say that they had too many because they were getting a lot of bad submissions and they were eating the costs.
Personally, I don't mind that they've increased the barrier to entry as it makes my life better since I'm already "in" ;)
Tom

Quote:
...and you still need to register with Verisign, because you cannot get the tools from Qualcomm without registration... unless charliex knows of publishers who routinely violate their license agreement with Qualcomm and pass on tools and documentation to would-be developers?
i hadn't realized a member of qualcomms legal department was here, and also had every one of the publishers agreements with qualcomm on hand too.
but seriously, its apparent some/one of the forum members aren't fully aware of qualcomms developer structure, publishers can make logins for their contracted developers, no drama, no $400 fee and all perfectly legal, its been happening since as long as i can remember for nearly all embedded development.
self publishing is going to be more expensive, on any large scale i can't remember it not being so.
publishers do take a slice as tom says, but they can make the costs lower, large scale throughput = deep discounts.

Quote:
...and you still need to register with Verisign, because you cannot get the tools from Qualcomm without registration... unless charliex knows of publishers who routinely violate their license agreement with Qualcomm and pass on tools and documentation to would-be developers?
i hadn't realized a member of qualcomms legal department was here, and also had every one of the publishers agreements with qualcomm on hand too.
but seriously, its apparent some/one of the forum members aren't fully aware of qualcomms developer structure, publishers can make logins for their contracted developers, no drama, no $400 fee and all perfectly legal, its been happening since as long as i can remember for nearly all embedded development.
self publishing is going to be more expensive, on any large scale i can't remember it not being so.
publishers do take a slice as tom says, but they can make the costs lower, large scale throughput = deep discounts.

I just got a LG vx6000 phone, which supports BREW 2.0.
I have the SDK and should be able to write code in VC++ and run it in the simulator.
However, it appears that I have to spend $400 to get a verisign certificate just to download the gnu arm compiling tools.
Is there no way to develop an application and put it on a phone without going through all these hoops? I don't want to distribute anything through get it now, or anything like that. I just wish to make a couple little apps to put on my own phone.
I can understand gearing things towards companies that do want to make brew stuff for profit, but it doesn't seem right to keep independent people out.

I just got a LG vx6000 phone, which supports BREW 2.0.
I have the SDK and should be able to write code in VC++ and run it in the simulator.
However, it appears that I have to spend $400 to get a verisign certificate just to download the gnu arm compiling tools.
Is there no way to develop an application and put it on a phone without going through all these hoops? I don't want to distribute anything through get it now, or anything like that. I just wish to make a couple little apps to put on my own phone.
I can understand gearing things towards companies that do want to make brew stuff for profit, but it doesn't seem right to keep independent people out.

unfortunately no, there is no way around the $400 verisign "tax".. Qualcomm apparently never had weekend programmers in mind when they developed BREW
you dont need the versign stuff to get the gnu tools, (well there are a couple of header files, but they are just macro defs to get around compiler differences) you need it to create a signature file for your phone that you have to have to run apps on your phone (they are created automatically when downloading through get it now)
this is why I have a j2me device for my personal phone.
-Tyndal

unfortunately no, there is no way around the $400 verisign "tax".. Qualcomm apparently never had weekend programmers in mind when they developed BREW
you dont need the versign stuff to get the gnu tools, (well there are a couple of header files, but they are just macro defs to get around compiler differences) you need it to create a signature file for your phone that you have to have to run apps on your phone (they are created automatically when downloading through get it now)
this is why I have a j2me device for my personal phone.
-Tyndal

Well...that majorly sucks. I wouldn't mind the $400 so much it didn't expire after a year.
Also, to get to a lot of the areas on Qualcomm's site, you need have registered for the verisign certificate. Chances are the same thing could be generated via OpenSSL, but then that cuts down on the monopoly.
I'd say I still have 14 days to return the phone, but I don't think Verizon offers any j2me phones, which I would be much happier with.
Makes me wish we used Eudora at work so I could campaign against it now :(

Well...that majorly sucks. I wouldn't mind the $400 so much it didn't expire after a year.
Also, to get to a lot of the areas on Qualcomm's site, you need have registered for the verisign certificate. Chances are the same thing could be generated via OpenSSL, but then that cuts down on the monopoly.
I'd say I still have 14 days to return the phone, but I don't think Verizon offers any j2me phones, which I would be much happier with.
Makes me wish we used Eudora at work so I could campaign against it now :(

even the year limitation wouldnt be so bad, since once you get the tools and signature you shouldnt need to access anything else.. but the signatures supposedly expire after 90 days or so, so you could only keep working sigs for around 15months..
-Tyndal

even the year limitation wouldnt be so bad, since once you get the tools and signature you shouldnt need to access anything else.. but the signatures supposedly expire after 90 days or so, so you could only keep working sigs for around 15months..
-Tyndal

time to try and find out whatever became of IBM's move to port j2me over to BREW :)

time to try and find out whatever became of IBM's move to port j2me over to BREW :)

Maybe I am not far enough in the process...but I am an individual and I am doing it. The barriers to entry are high for an individual, but I recognize that if I hurdle them I eliminate half my competition. All things considered though, the barriers are not that high. I am budgeting around $7000 in costs for my first app - and I could do it for alot less by using GCC instead of commercial tools, being less aggressive on phone selections, and by using a publisher.
You need to decide what your goals are. You stated, "But for an individual who wants to build the skill set and sell himself on the employment market, it's not so trivial." If your objective is to get a job/contract doing BREW development, you can probably get a shot at some work on the strength of a good BREW demo and your Java MIDP experience. I have been told as much by a friend that is on the producing side at a major publisher. You can do that with a Windows machine, a ~$100 copy of MSVC++ and the SDK. (I must admit here that I am helped by the fact that I know the guy giving out the contracts, so your mileage may vary). If you want to build and sell your own application without using a publisher, you probably need to spend a bare minimum of $2000 ($400 Class 3 certificate, $600 for phone/service, $1000 for TBT). You may also have some additional legal fees associated with meeting the Proof of Organization requirements for a Class 3 certificate. I did, but I might not have chosen the cheapest route for fulfilling that requirement.

Maybe I am not far enough in the process...but I am an individual and I am doing it. The barriers to entry are high for an individual, but I recognize that if I hurdle them I eliminate half my competition. All things considered though, the barriers are not that high. I am budgeting around $7000 in costs for my first app - and I could do it for alot less by using GCC instead of commercial tools, being less aggressive on phone selections, and by using a publisher.
You need to decide what your goals are. You stated, "But for an individual who wants to build the skill set and sell himself on the employment market, it's not so trivial." If your objective is to get a job/contract doing BREW development, you can probably get a shot at some work on the strength of a good BREW demo and your Java MIDP experience. I have been told as much by a friend that is on the producing side at a major publisher. You can do that with a Windows machine, a ~$100 copy of MSVC++ and the SDK. (I must admit here that I am helped by the fact that I know the guy giving out the contracts, so your mileage may vary). If you want to build and sell your own application without using a publisher, you probably need to spend a bare minimum of $2000 ($400 Class 3 certificate, $600 for phone/service, $1000 for TBT). You may also have some additional legal fees associated with meeting the Proof of Organization requirements for a Class 3 certificate. I did, but I might not have chosen the cheapest route for fulfilling that requirement.

nt

nt

What abou the ARM compiler? Looking around the site I get the distinct impression that you can't get around the $1500 for that piece of software, without which there's no way to get the device files built.
Am I missing something? Is there a way to get this stuff for free?

What abou the ARM compiler? Looking around the site I get the distinct impression that you can't get around the $1500 for that piece of software, without which there's no way to get the device files built.
Am I missing something? Is there a way to get this stuff for free?

Nope...there is the Gnu arm cross compiler. that's free. However, you have to be a registered developer ($400 verisign tax) to get the required files (apparently some headers).
That makes sense - pay to get files for a free compiler.
So, in theory you should be able to do all the development at no cost.
The problem then becomes getting the app on the phone, that's where you need the certificate to sign the app. From what I understand, you can get a development certificate that is tied to the ESN if your phone.
To me, qualcomm should allow anyone to register as a developer to get access to the files for development, and they should allow independent developers who have no desire to distribute their code to get a signature that only works on their phone. That way they can still try to get their percentage from the GetItNow users and not alienate others (also potentially creating even more Brew developers)

Nope...there is the Gnu arm cross compiler. that's free. However, you have to be a registered developer ($400 verisign tax) to get the required files (apparently some headers).
That makes sense - pay to get files for a free compiler.
So, in theory you should be able to do all the development at no cost.
The problem then becomes getting the app on the phone, that's where you need the certificate to sign the app. From what I understand, you can get a development certificate that is tied to the ESN if your phone.
To me, qualcomm should allow anyone to register as a developer to get access to the files for development, and they should allow independent developers who have no desire to distribute their code to get a signature that only works on their phone. That way they can still try to get their percentage from the GetItNow users and not alienate others (also potentially creating even more Brew developers)

your also forgetting that you need to test enable the phone, which requires it to be sent to Qualcomm.

your also forgetting that you need to test enable the phone, which requires it to be sent to Qualcomm.

I'm not so sure about that. If you go into the service menu, there is an item under Get It Now labeled Test or something like that and it's set to false. I'm taking a wild guess that putting True in there would fix that.
Then again, that could be something completely different.

I'm not so sure about that. If you go into the service menu, there is an item under Get It Now labeled Test or something like that and it's set to false. I'm taking a wild guess that putting True in there would fix that.
Then again, that could be something completely different.

I think you will find that that is a read only option - it's not changeable from the handset

I think you will find that that is a read only option - it's not changeable from the handset

so close... yet so far away :)

so close... yet so far away :)

everything I read confirms that sending the phone to qualcomm is an unavoidable step, however, I don't see anything that suggests that they charge you for that service, and supposedly the turn around time is pretty rapid (several days). So, as long as this discussion is about paying to develop, it would seem that the verisign key is the only unavoidable cost (if you don't count buying a phone and the data transfer cable).

everything I read confirms that sending the phone to qualcomm is an unavoidable step, however, I don't see anything that suggests that they charge you for that service, and supposedly the turn around time is pretty rapid (several days). So, as long as this discussion is about paying to develop, it would seem that the verisign key is the only unavoidable cost (if you don't count buying a phone and the data transfer cable).

You also have to pay for TBT of you app if you want it to run on non-test enabled phones

You also have to pay for TBT of you app if you want it to run on non-test enabled phones

I recently bought my first japanese keitai, an au a5506t. Of course I was excited about the prospect of writing various useful apps for it using the BREW technology that it was supposed to support according to the AU catalogue. But am I to understand that it is impossible for me to get an application onto my phone without paying qualcomm for certifying my app or for unlocking my phone?
Is it possible to unlock the phone (enable testing) by yourself?
What about this JVM implemented in BREW I've heard about? Can you write an uncertified java app and have it run in the JVM on a brew phone?

I recently bought my first japanese keitai, an au a5506t. Of course I was excited about the prospect of writing various useful apps for it using the BREW technology that it was supposed to support according to the AU catalogue. But am I to understand that it is impossible for me to get an application onto my phone without paying qualcomm for certifying my app or for unlocking my phone?
Is it possible to unlock the phone (enable testing) by yourself?
What about this JVM implemented in BREW I've heard about? Can you write an uncertified java app and have it run in the JVM on a brew phone?

BREW is a closed platform and as such not a good choice for hobby development - that's what PCs are for. Just as no one would buy a Gameboy or Sony Playstation hoping to do hobby development on it, no one should expect a cellphone to be a practice or hobbyist platform.

BREW is a closed platform and as such not a good choice for hobby development - that's what PCs are for. Just as no one would buy a Gameboy or Sony Playstation hoping to do hobby development on it, no one should expect a cellphone to be a practice or hobbyist platform.

Or you can use Windows Smartphone for ameture development.

Or you can use Windows Smartphone for ameture development.

But it's impossible to get a compiled program onto my phone?

But it's impossible to get a compiled program onto my phone?

Technically speaking, you have to pay Verisign, not Qualcomm. You don't have to have your app certified to get it onto your own phone. You need to have your phone test enabled, and then you have to get a test sig from the BREW extranet. But first you have to be authenticated by Verisign, a process that costs $400.

Technically speaking, you have to pay Verisign, not Qualcomm. You don't have to have your app certified to get it onto your own phone. You need to have your phone test enabled, and then you have to get a test sig from the BREW extranet. But first you have to be authenticated by Verisign, a process that costs $400.

Trogdor:
Unfortunately you picked the carrier in Japan where it is very difficult to develop your own apps. If you know someone developing Brew apps professionally, they may be able to help you out, but otherwise, you are basically out of luck. Otherwise, you are better off switching to Vodafone or Docomo if you really want to develop your own hobby apps.
Dragon,
In Japan there are basically 3 carriers, Docomo, Vodafone (previously J-Phone), and KDDI. Until KDDI switched to using brew, All 3 carriers used J2ME apps, you could develop your own "hobby" apps, and download them off your own web site and play on you phone... (well except Vodafone, where you have to download from a "registered" web server, but there is actually a site that allows you to write/download hobby apps through their site for free). Recent Docomo phones have limited apps that use certain apis (such as accessing memory cards) to be downloaded from "certified" sites (similar to vodafone, I think), but basic apps are still free to develop/download. There is also a decent amount of books/magazines that talk about developing for cell phones. So, in Japan, it is fairly reasonable to think that you will be able to do hobby development on your cell phone. Isn't this how it works for J2ME carriers in the US such as Sprint and AT&T? Also, isn't it possible to do hobby development on the N-Gage/Nokia handsets as well? (I am not sure about this, it is just the impression I have, and would appreciate clarification if possible)
I agree with you on most of your posts, but I disagree with your point that "no one should expect a cell phone to be a practice or hobbyist platform". It seems to be a reasonable platform for hobby development (especially compared to Gameboy and Playstation) However, I do believe that trogdor (and others that make posts similar to this) should have researched this further before making his purchase..
Moderators:
since this Question seems to pop up a decent amount in the forums, Perhaps it could be added to the FAQ, explaining how brew is not meant as a hobbyist platform, and listing the minimal fees needed for development on a handset ($400 verisign 1-year license, with signatures needing to be renewed every 90 days, the $1000 testing fee for an app on a single handset, etc) emphasizing how it is not designed for hobby developers, and the fees/requirements may vary by carrier/country. Then we could simply point to that FAQ when the question pops up again. (And hopefully others would find it on FAQ before posting)
-Tyndal

Trogdor:
Unfortunately you picked the carrier in Japan where it is very difficult to develop your own apps. If you know someone developing Brew apps professionally, they may be able to help you out, but otherwise, you are basically out of luck. Otherwise, you are better off switching to Vodafone or Docomo if you really want to develop your own hobby apps.
Dragon,
In Japan there are basically 3 carriers, Docomo, Vodafone (previously J-Phone), and KDDI. Until KDDI switched to using brew, All 3 carriers used J2ME apps, you could develop your own "hobby" apps, and download them off your own web site and play on you phone... (well except Vodafone, where you have to download from a "registered" web server, but there is actually a site that allows you to write/download hobby apps through their site for free). Recent Docomo phones have limited apps that use certain apis (such as accessing memory cards) to be downloaded from "certified" sites (similar to vodafone, I think), but basic apps are still free to develop/download. There is also a decent amount of books/magazines that talk about developing for cell phones. So, in Japan, it is fairly reasonable to think that you will be able to do hobby development on your cell phone. Isn't this how it works for J2ME carriers in the US such as Sprint and AT&T? Also, isn't it possible to do hobby development on the N-Gage/Nokia handsets as well? (I am not sure about this, it is just the impression I have, and would appreciate clarification if possible)
I agree with you on most of your posts, but I disagree with your point that "no one should expect a cell phone to be a practice or hobbyist platform". It seems to be a reasonable platform for hobby development (especially compared to Gameboy and Playstation) However, I do believe that trogdor (and others that make posts similar to this) should have researched this further before making his purchase..
Moderators:
since this Question seems to pop up a decent amount in the forums, Perhaps it could be added to the FAQ, explaining how brew is not meant as a hobbyist platform, and listing the minimal fees needed for development on a handset ($400 verisign 1-year license, with signatures needing to be renewed every 90 days, the $1000 testing fee for an app on a single handset, etc) emphasizing how it is not designed for hobby developers, and the fees/requirements may vary by carrier/country. Then we could simply point to that FAQ when the question pops up again. (And hopefully others would find it on FAQ before posting)
-Tyndal

I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
It's just not very logical. If you want to develop applications as an amateur you search for the platfrom with the highest payoff at the smallest friction and entry barrier. No cell phones can offer that as their hardware is anything but attractive and the distribution channels are very closed for the most part. The problem is that many of these hobbyists don't even do the most basic research before they set out to develop and then they get all worked up when they find out that Brew is a closed platform.
Important note: I do not mean to refer to you by saying this, trogdor, but to some other folks we have had in these forums.

I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
It's just not very logical. If you want to develop applications as an amateur you search for the platfrom with the highest payoff at the smallest friction and entry barrier. No cell phones can offer that as their hardware is anything but attractive and the distribution channels are very closed for the most part. The problem is that many of these hobbyists don't even do the most basic research before they set out to develop and then they get all worked up when they find out that Brew is a closed platform.
Important note: I do not mean to refer to you by saying this, trogdor, but to some other folks we have had in these forums.

Dragon wrote:I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
It's just not very logical.
Well, with the remote example I'd have to say Yes and No. It seems resonable to want to program the remote to be able to control things like your stereo. There are some universal remotes availble that are, for example, only "universal" to certain brands of TVs and VCRs, while there are also ones that are "learning" or "programmable" that can be set to work as a replacement to most any remote.. of course, its the consumers responsibilty to make sure that the remote can do what they want before purchasing. Also, I do agree that it is not logical to expect to be able to program the remote to become a calculator for example.
Dragon wrote:
If you want to develop applications as an amateur you search for the platfrom with the highest payoff at the smallest friction and entry barrier. No cell phones can offer that as their hardware is anything but attractive and the distribution channels are very closed for the most part. The problem is that many of these hobbyists don't even do the most basic research before they set out to develop and then they get all worked up when they find out that Brew is a closed platform.
Yes, I agree. I was just suggesting to make it a little bit easier for these hobbyists to do their "basic research" by clearly stating the minimum needed to run an app on the handset such as:
- Test enable the handset by sending it into qualcomm (may vary by carrier, such as KDDI in Japan)
- Verisign ID $400 (USD)
combine this with some of the information from these links:
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html
https://brewx.qualcomm.com/bws/content/gi/common/appseng/en/knowledgebas...
The reason I suggest this is that the people that come and complain about not being able to develop for free are going to be the ones that dont assemble information from various pages to come to the conclusion that brew is not right for them. I was just thinking of a simple single FAQ that we could point to and say "RTFM" ;)
-Tyndal

Dragon wrote:I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
It's just not very logical.
Well, with the remote example I'd have to say Yes and No. It seems resonable to want to program the remote to be able to control things like your stereo. There are some universal remotes availble that are, for example, only "universal" to certain brands of TVs and VCRs, while there are also ones that are "learning" or "programmable" that can be set to work as a replacement to most any remote.. of course, its the consumers responsibilty to make sure that the remote can do what they want before purchasing. Also, I do agree that it is not logical to expect to be able to program the remote to become a calculator for example.
Dragon wrote:
If you want to develop applications as an amateur you search for the platfrom with the highest payoff at the smallest friction and entry barrier. No cell phones can offer that as their hardware is anything but attractive and the distribution channels are very closed for the most part. The problem is that many of these hobbyists don't even do the most basic research before they set out to develop and then they get all worked up when they find out that Brew is a closed platform.
Yes, I agree. I was just suggesting to make it a little bit easier for these hobbyists to do their "basic research" by clearly stating the minimum needed to run an app on the handset such as:
- Test enable the handset by sending it into qualcomm (may vary by carrier, such as KDDI in Japan)
- Verisign ID $400 (USD)
combine this with some of the information from these links:
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html
https://brewx.qualcomm.com/bws/content/gi/common/appseng/en/knowledgebas...
The reason I suggest this is that the people that come and complain about not being able to develop for free are going to be the ones that dont assemble information from various pages to come to the conclusion that brew is not right for them. I was just thinking of a simple single FAQ that we could point to and say "RTFM" ;)
-Tyndal

Actually, I was referring to the remote control example to *programming* as in *writing software* for it, hahaha! :D

Actually, I was referring to the remote control example to *programming* as in *writing software* for it, hahaha! :D

For Microsoft smart phone hobby developement, from msdn download Embedded Visual C++ and smartphone SDK (comes with IDE debugger/compiler/emulator etc) and get your phone handset.
In symbian platform (like Nokia N-gage/7650 etc), you can do hobby development. All you need is to download SDK from Nokia website and your phone hardware.
In the above two platforms there are no entry barrier, at the same time there are no protection against application piracy. However in BREW there is entry barrier (which keeps ameture/script kiddie away from copying application. Note: trogdor I don't mean to say you are trying to do so) and other measures which acts as deterrant against piracy. This is just different business philosophy.
In my opinion Qualcomm can allow one sig file generation for ameture development (which will be valid for 3/6 months), after that if the ameture developer still wants to do development then he/she needs to go through verisign process. This will allow platform adoption/ameture development while keeping higher entry barrier.

For Microsoft smart phone hobby developement, from msdn download Embedded Visual C++ and smartphone SDK (comes with IDE debugger/compiler/emulator etc) and get your phone handset.
In symbian platform (like Nokia N-gage/7650 etc), you can do hobby development. All you need is to download SDK from Nokia website and your phone hardware.
In the above two platforms there are no entry barrier, at the same time there are no protection against application piracy. However in BREW there is entry barrier (which keeps ameture/script kiddie away from copying application. Note: trogdor I don't mean to say you are trying to do so) and other measures which acts as deterrant against piracy. This is just different business philosophy.
In my opinion Qualcomm can allow one sig file generation for ameture development (which will be valid for 3/6 months), after that if the ameture developer still wants to do development then he/she needs to go through verisign process. This will allow platform adoption/ameture development while keeping higher entry barrier.

Ok, that was a big dissapointment. But again, does the JVM developed for brew have a webpage? Can it run java apps that havent been certified?
Question 2: Are there any ebook readers/text readers with search capability for brew? My phone has a Mini SD-card and I'd like to put a dictionary on it so I can use it on the phone.

Ok, that was a big dissapointment. But again, does the JVM developed for brew have a webpage? Can it run java apps that havent been certified?
Question 2: Are there any ebook readers/text readers with search capability for brew? My phone has a Mini SD-card and I'd like to put a dictionary on it so I can use it on the phone.

There are no commercial BREW phone (that's what I know of) has JVM support (some work was done by IBM/Insignia, but I haven't seen it in the commercial phone).
Answer to your second question, No I don't think so, however I can tell you for sure. Other forum members or Qualcomm may provide more information.

There are no commercial BREW phone (that's what I know of) has JVM support (some work was done by IBM/Insignia, but I haven't seen it in the commercial phone).
Answer to your second question, No I don't think so, however I can tell you for sure. Other forum members or Qualcomm may provide more information.

If you manage to obtain the JVM (which is implemented as a BREW extension) from Esmertec, you can cable-load it to your phone. Of course, this still requires authentication.

If you manage to obtain the JVM (which is implemented as a BREW extension) from Esmertec, you can cable-load it to your phone. Of course, this still requires authentication.

Authentication of the java application or only the brew implementation of the JVM?

Authentication of the java application or only the brew implementation of the JVM?

You would need a test sig for the JVM and another for the application. You would also need to be authenticated to download Apploader and JBuilder.

You would need a test sig for the JVM and another for the application. You would also need to be authenticated to download Apploader and JBuilder.

Hi,
I don't know if it's a good idea to talk about this here but it is possible to enter in the realm of hackers, warez and other not very allowed things, don't do it, it's not allowed. :p
Brew phones have been hacked! One word : Gagin. Also those hackers do take off some money from us, Brew developpers.
Peace,
Joël S.

Hi,
I don't know if it's a good idea to talk about this here but it is possible to enter in the realm of hackers, warez and other not very allowed things, don't do it, it's not allowed. :p
Brew phones have been hacked! One word : Gagin. Also those hackers do take off some money from us, Brew developpers.
Peace,
Joël S.

I want to download the SE47 device skin (QSC file) but apparently to access the download page I need to be an authenticated developer.
I look at how to become one, and they ask for VeriSign certificate, which is 400$US for 100 certificate.
Thing is, I'm *alone* and doing it just for the fun. Is there any cheap alternatives for hobbyist who wants to access authenticated-only informations (device skins, informations, etc) without having to pay a 400$US ?
Thanks !

I want to download the SE47 device skin (QSC file) but apparently to access the download page I need to be an authenticated developer.
I look at how to become one, and they ask for VeriSign certificate, which is 400$US for 100 certificate.
Thing is, I'm *alone* and doing it just for the fun. Is there any cheap alternatives for hobbyist who wants to access authenticated-only informations (device skins, informations, etc) without having to pay a 400$US ?
Thanks !

i'm not aware of a legal way to get that skin.
however if you have the SDK you can alter and create your own skins.

i'm not aware of a legal way to get that skin.
however if you have the SDK you can alter and create your own skins.

That's what I did, with the scan of a SE47 and everything. But I would love to set emulator data as close as possible (especially the blit speed) so I can get a more realistic feel of my software execution, easier to optimize. I'd like a lot to get the most technical data about the SE47 as I can get, but that too is under authentication protection.
Is there ANY way I can get a single VeriSign certificate for less dans 400$ (because 100 as the minimum seems really overkill, 99 wasted).
That'd be awesome to gather 100 individual BREW hobbyists and share together a block of VeriSign. Is anything like that ever happened ?

That's what I did, with the scan of a SE47 and everything. But I would love to set emulator data as close as possible (especially the blit speed) so I can get a more realistic feel of my software execution, easier to optimize. I'd like a lot to get the most technical data about the SE47 as I can get, but that too is under authentication protection.
Is there ANY way I can get a single VeriSign certificate for less dans 400$ (because 100 as the minimum seems really overkill, 99 wasted).
That'd be awesome to gather 100 individual BREW hobbyists and share together a block of VeriSign. Is anything like that ever happened ?

Or even 8 hobbyists to drop the price at 50$ would be more acceptable I think. I wonder if I can gather as many people to go with it on this forum ?

Or even 8 hobbyists to drop the price at 50$ would be more acceptable I think. I wonder if I can gather as many people to go with it on this forum ?

in order to get the certificate you have to prove you are a real business, its possible to get around it but its a hassle, and theres nothing cheaper than $400
since most of the cost is involved in setting it up.
the blit speeds wont match anyway, so getting the skin won't help you.
better to get a bunch of hobbyists and make a little company ;)

in order to get the certificate you have to prove you are a real business, its possible to get around it but its a hassle, and theres nothing cheaper than $400
since most of the cost is involved in setting it up.
the blit speeds wont match anyway, so getting the skin won't help you.
better to get a bunch of hobbyists and make a little company ;)

Brew is simply not a hobbyist-platform. If you can't even afford to sign up with Verisign you will find Brew to be an extremely expensive paltform to work on because there's a lot more cost coming at you down the line.
For hobby development in C/C++ on an ARM processor the Microsoft Smartphone is certainly a better choice, or the Pocket PC.

Brew is simply not a hobbyist-platform. If you can't even afford to sign up with Verisign you will find Brew to be an extremely expensive paltform to work on because there's a lot more cost coming at you down the line.
For hobby development in C/C++ on an ARM processor the Microsoft Smartphone is certainly a better choice, or the Pocket PC.

Dragon wrote:I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
I just totally disagree with you on this. *Everything* with a CPU is a potential hobbyist dream. That's the core of the hobby : programming for stuff that actually isn't quite made for house programming.
You mentionned PC. Bleh in my case. I just love developing on the smallest and most restrained platform out there, it's only a matter of choice.
Long story short : your personnal opinion on what hobbyist should do is *not* a rule to other hobbyist, simply because it's a pure matter of personnal preference.

Dragon wrote:I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
I just totally disagree with you on this. *Everything* with a CPU is a potential hobbyist dream. That's the core of the hobby : programming for stuff that actually isn't quite made for house programming.
You mentionned PC. Bleh in my case. I just love developing on the smallest and most restrained platform out there, it's only a matter of choice.
Long story short : your personnal opinion on what hobbyist should do is *not* a rule to other hobbyist, simply because it's a pure matter of personnal preference.

Sure. Why don;t you go ahead and write software for your TV remote control then? It has a CPU as well, after all. Or how about a game for your microwave? I'm sure someone would even bundle that... :p

Sure. Why don;t you go ahead and write software for your TV remote control then? It has a CPU as well, after all. Or how about a game for your microwave? I'm sure someone would even bundle that... :p

Dragon wrote:Sure. Why don;t you go ahead and write software for your TV remote control then? It has a CPU as well, after all. Or how about a game for your microwave? I'm sure someone would even bundle that... :p
If I had interests in those devices, I'd be happy to program on them. Probably not a 3D game for a remote control, but who knows? :rolleyes: Problem with a remote control, there's no good output system to see any result. I still prefere a little cellphone LCD :)
Anyway, my point is that hobby programming has no bundaries. It's only for fun, and you cannot mesure the fun factor someone get from doing stuff that may appear stupid to you but in the end is as much valid as any other hobby.
I saw so many peoples on various hobby OS forums wondering why the hell someone would lose his time programming a barebone OS from scratch if it's not going to be useful. Only one word : fun. :D

Dragon wrote:Sure. Why don;t you go ahead and write software for your TV remote control then? It has a CPU as well, after all. Or how about a game for your microwave? I'm sure someone would even bundle that... :p
If I had interests in those devices, I'd be happy to program on them. Probably not a 3D game for a remote control, but who knows? :rolleyes: Problem with a remote control, there's no good output system to see any result. I still prefere a little cellphone LCD :)
Anyway, my point is that hobby programming has no bundaries. It's only for fun, and you cannot mesure the fun factor someone get from doing stuff that may appear stupid to you but in the end is as much valid as any other hobby.
I saw so many peoples on various hobby OS forums wondering why the hell someone would lose his time programming a barebone OS from scratch if it's not going to be useful. Only one word : fun. :D

Sure, whatever floats people's boats - and I've never argued that - but I wish they would stop jammering about how *impossible* it is that Brew is a closed system. That's what I don't like. You do not buy a cell phone and expect it to be the perfect development platform... just like you don't buy a remote control and expect it to be the perfect dev platform.... okay, I'm beginning to repeat myself. Time to stop this conversation.

Sure, whatever floats people's boats - and I've never argued that - but I wish they would stop jammering about how *impossible* it is that Brew is a closed system. That's what I don't like. You do not buy a cell phone and expect it to be the perfect development platform... just like you don't buy a remote control and expect it to be the perfect dev platform.... okay, I'm beginning to repeat myself. Time to stop this conversation.

Dragon wrote:Sure, whatever floats people's boats - and I've never argued that - but I wish they would stop jammering about how *impossible* it is that Brew is a closed system. That's what I don't like. You do not buy a cell phone and expect it to be the perfect development platform... just like you don't buy a remote control and expect it to be the perfect dev platform.... okay, I'm beginning to repeat myself. Time to stop this conversation.
Then to complete the discussion, I totally agree with your last message. It's fun for some people to get this kind of challenge, but if you're not looking for a challenge, then don't complain !

Dragon wrote:Sure, whatever floats people's boats - and I've never argued that - but I wish they would stop jammering about how *impossible* it is that Brew is a closed system. That's what I don't like. You do not buy a cell phone and expect it to be the perfect development platform... just like you don't buy a remote control and expect it to be the perfect dev platform.... okay, I'm beginning to repeat myself. Time to stop this conversation.
Then to complete the discussion, I totally agree with your last message. It's fun for some people to get this kind of challenge, but if you're not looking for a challenge, then don't complain !

Dragon wrote:I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
I think many people see the new cellphones (capable of downloading and playing games) much more like PDAs (like Palms, which have always been extremely easy for hobbiests to program) than 'commercial game systems' (like PlayStation2).
In fact, almost every time I mention I do cellphone game programming, my geekier friends ask if they can get into it to... "what, do I need a cable?" Of course my answer is "yeah, and a few thousand dollars." :)

Dragon wrote:I don't get why anyone would pick a cell phone as a hobbyist dev platform, whether it's possible or not. It's not a question of feasability but of practicality. It's like someone buying a universal remote control and saying "Hey, I want to develop some cool stuff for it. What do you mean, I can't??? It has a processor, right?"
I think many people see the new cellphones (capable of downloading and playing games) much more like PDAs (like Palms, which have always been extremely easy for hobbiests to program) than 'commercial game systems' (like PlayStation2).
In fact, almost every time I mention I do cellphone game programming, my geekier friends ask if they can get into it to... "what, do I need a cable?" Of course my answer is "yeah, and a few thousand dollars." :)

Hello
Without becoming Brew Authenticated Developer, Can I develop any Brew Application. Authentication involve a high price and that's not affordable to me but does that mean I can not go ahead with acquiring some expertise in Brew. I really want to be part of Brew Developers Extranet.
Please let me know about it.
Regards
Anuradha

Hello
Without becoming Brew Authenticated Developer, Can I develop any Brew Application. Authentication involve a high price and that's not affordable to me but does that mean I can not go ahead with acquiring some expertise in Brew. I really want to be part of Brew Developers Extranet.
Please let me know about it.
Regards
Anuradha

You don't need to pay in order to download the BREW SDK. That is freely available to anyone. Basically here's how it breaks down:
If you just want to program in BREW on a PC, you don't need to become authenticated.
If you want to put your app on an actual handset and sell it, you need to be authenticated.

You don't need to pay in order to download the BREW SDK. That is freely available to anyone. Basically here's how it breaks down:
If you just want to program in BREW on a PC, you don't need to become authenticated.
If you want to put your app on an actual handset and sell it, you need to be authenticated.

If you want to put your app on a handset just to test it, you also need to be authenticated

If you want to put your app on a handset just to test it, you also need to be authenticated

thanks for the replies. I see the price to be $400 per 100 developers. It may be possible that there is a lesses number ( 4 or 5) of team of people working then I dont think this high price should be valid.
Anyways if thats the policy then nothing much to be done.
Thanks again
Anuradha

thanks for the replies. I see the price to be $400 per 100 developers. It may be possible that there is a lesses number ( 4 or 5) of team of people working then I dont think this high price should be valid.
Anyways if thats the policy then nothing much to be done.
Thanks again
Anuradha

Hello,
I agree with Anuamit that the hurdle to try BREW technology (to see if its really valuable as they promote, this is the very common thing these day...) is too high.
I think Qualcomm people dont care much about having their technology spread around the world and finally become a de facto standard.
First, the SDK download page often gives error on network with proxy servers and firewalls. You knew from your friends that there's some thing called BREW. Your fired your browser to download the BREW SDK. Then an uggly error shows up at the first time! This gives you the first impression that the BREW code might be in a unstable stage or the people developing BREW are not interested in software quality as you thought.
There is a workaround (which is discussed somewhere in this forum) for this error, but if it is the very first time you visit BREW web site, it'll take a couple of hours to figure out the problem and I really got crazy before being able to get the SDK itself. Amazingly enough, many people know about this and the SDK has gone several releases but the bug of the download tool is not fixed yet!
Second, you need to be authenticated in order to test your code on your own phone. This is too strick! Its right that your code (and yourselft) need to be authenticated before the average customers could download it. But I'm still in the evaluation phase. Why do I need to pay as much as $400 before I can decide BREW is my solution or not ? $400 for 100 aplication! Do you have 100 engineers the first time you try BREW?
Java costs nothing to give it a try. As long as I test my code on my own phone I never need to be authencated. They say that BREW is hard to code, error prone, which results in higher development cost, compared to Java. If this is not correct, why dont BREW marketing people make their product more easier to be get acquainted?
Please forgive me if my words were too acrid.
Best regards,
Dick

Hello,
I agree with Anuamit that the hurdle to try BREW technology (to see if its really valuable as they promote, this is the very common thing these day...) is too high.
I think Qualcomm people dont care much about having their technology spread around the world and finally become a de facto standard.
First, the SDK download page often gives error on network with proxy servers and firewalls. You knew from your friends that there's some thing called BREW. Your fired your browser to download the BREW SDK. Then an uggly error shows up at the first time! This gives you the first impression that the BREW code might be in a unstable stage or the people developing BREW are not interested in software quality as you thought.
There is a workaround (which is discussed somewhere in this forum) for this error, but if it is the very first time you visit BREW web site, it'll take a couple of hours to figure out the problem and I really got crazy before being able to get the SDK itself. Amazingly enough, many people know about this and the SDK has gone several releases but the bug of the download tool is not fixed yet!
Second, you need to be authenticated in order to test your code on your own phone. This is too strick! Its right that your code (and yourselft) need to be authenticated before the average customers could download it. But I'm still in the evaluation phase. Why do I need to pay as much as $400 before I can decide BREW is my solution or not ? $400 for 100 aplication! Do you have 100 engineers the first time you try BREW?
Java costs nothing to give it a try. As long as I test my code on my own phone I never need to be authencated. They say that BREW is hard to code, error prone, which results in higher development cost, compared to Java. If this is not correct, why dont BREW marketing people make their product more easier to be get acquainted?
Please forgive me if my words were too acrid.
Best regards,
Dick

Quote:Second, you need to be authenticated in order to test your code on your own phone. This is too strick! Its right that your code (and yourselft) need to be authenticated before the average customers could download it. But I'm still in the evaluation phase. Why do I need to pay as much as $400 before I can decide BREW is my solution or not ? $400 for 100 aplication! Do you have 100 engineers the first time you try BREW?
The security of the BREW system is one of the main reasons why carriers choose to deploy it instead of Java. If you could put your app onto any phone without some authentication process, what would stop anybody else from distributing that code for free? You can test your code on the emulator, which should be good enough to determine if you want to pursue BREW development.
Quote:They say that BREW is hard to code, error prone, which results in higher development cost, compared to Java.
Writing C or C++ code is more challenging than writing Java code. But, on the other hand, there are many benefits to writing code in a lower-level language (such as improved performance, and better access to hardware features).
With that said, you are absolutely correct that the SDK installation needs significant improvement.

Quote:Second, you need to be authenticated in order to test your code on your own phone. This is too strick! Its right that your code (and yourselft) need to be authenticated before the average customers could download it. But I'm still in the evaluation phase. Why do I need to pay as much as $400 before I can decide BREW is my solution or not ? $400 for 100 aplication! Do you have 100 engineers the first time you try BREW?
The security of the BREW system is one of the main reasons why carriers choose to deploy it instead of Java. If you could put your app onto any phone without some authentication process, what would stop anybody else from distributing that code for free? You can test your code on the emulator, which should be good enough to determine if you want to pursue BREW development.
Quote:They say that BREW is hard to code, error prone, which results in higher development cost, compared to Java.
Writing C or C++ code is more challenging than writing Java code. But, on the other hand, there are many benefits to writing code in a lower-level language (such as improved performance, and better access to hardware features).
With that said, you are absolutely correct that the SDK installation needs significant improvement.

Dick wrote:Second, you need to be authenticated in order to test your code on your own phone.
You won't be able to do so anyway because test enabled phones are not freely available.

Dick wrote:Second, you need to be authenticated in order to test your code on your own phone.
You won't be able to do so anyway because test enabled phones are not freely available.

Quote:The security of the BREW system is one of the main reasons why carriers choose to deploy it instead of Java. If you could put your app onto any phone without some authentication process, what would stop anybody else from distributing that code for free? You can test your code on the emulator, which should be good enough to determine if you want to pursue BREW development.
I'd like to point out that Java implementations on handsets won't let you take an application off the device once its been installed, so you couldn't just give it to your friends. However it does mean that someone could write a game and release it for free (Open Source'd type of thing).
Personally i like the idea of creating something specific for my own phone and my own use without having to pay $$$$. Qualcomm in this sense are like M$. However Brew is a lot better than J2ME (But i'm not going to get into an argument about this)

Quote:The security of the BREW system is one of the main reasons why carriers choose to deploy it instead of Java. If you could put your app onto any phone without some authentication process, what would stop anybody else from distributing that code for free? You can test your code on the emulator, which should be good enough to determine if you want to pursue BREW development.
I'd like to point out that Java implementations on handsets won't let you take an application off the device once its been installed, so you couldn't just give it to your friends. However it does mean that someone could write a game and release it for free (Open Source'd type of thing).
Personally i like the idea of creating something specific for my own phone and my own use without having to pay $$$$. Qualcomm in this sense are like M$. However Brew is a lot better than J2ME (But i'm not going to get into an argument about this)

I just want to point out that Qualcomm doesn't see a dime of your Verisign registration money.

I just want to point out that Qualcomm doesn't see a dime of your Verisign registration money.

Are there any other costs after 400$ for licences??
So far as i understand there are :
400$ for licences..
setting a phone to Test phone mode
some for testing the application for True brew..
LP
Franc
P.S:
costs like membership fee??

Are there any other costs after 400$ for licences??
So far as i understand there are :
400$ for licences..
setting a phone to Test phone mode
some for testing the application for True brew..
LP
Franc
P.S:
costs like membership fee??

I was going to buy a cell phone today, and I already know that Brew will be available on it. Will I be able to freely write programs like games for my cell phone, or does it cost money to do so? Otherwise I'll probably just get some cheap phone for making calls if I can't play around with programming for it.
I'd like to know as soon as possible before I have to make my decision.

I was going to buy a cell phone today, and I already know that Brew will be available on it. Will I be able to freely write programs like games for my cell phone, or does it cost money to do so? Otherwise I'll probably just get some cheap phone for making calls if I can't play around with programming for it.
I'd like to know as soon as possible before I have to make my decision.

The SDK is free for download, and games can be written and simulated. Compilation can be done for free with GCC, but in order to develop applications, you will need to acquire test sigs and Apploader for loading applications to the device. These tools are for authenticated developers. Info is here:
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html

The SDK is free for download, and games can be written and simulated. Compilation can be done for free with GCC, but in order to develop applications, you will need to acquire test sigs and Apploader for loading applications to the device. These tools are for authenticated developers. Info is here:
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html

Thanks!
And because this message is too short to post: thanks again.

Thanks!
And because this message is too short to post: thanks again.

also you have to send the phone to qualcomm to be test enabled, which is a turn around week.
the certificate costs around $400 a year i think

also you have to send the phone to qualcomm to be test enabled, which is a turn around week.
the certificate costs around $400 a year i think

Yes, so I've been reading and I ended up just getting the cheap $40 phone to make calls on. Hopefully some day they'll come up with an alternative for people like myself wanting to take up non commercial private hobbyist BREW programming, even if that makes me a minority.

Yes, so I've been reading and I ended up just getting the cheap $40 phone to make calls on. Hopefully some day they'll come up with an alternative for people like myself wanting to take up non commercial private hobbyist BREW programming, even if that makes me a minority.

if you want free, go J2ME or symbian

if you want free, go J2ME or symbian

why do we need verisign authentic document id in order to access extranet? Aren't We only need to access the extranet to download some useful tools that help us with our development. $400 per year really really too expensive for freelance developer.
any comment?

why do we need verisign authentic document id in order to access extranet? Aren't We only need to access the extranet to download some useful tools that help us with our development. $400 per year really really too expensive for freelance developer.
any comment?

3 weeks ago i had never even heard of BREW, but i recently got a new cell phone and have decided that i'd like to learn the workings of BREW and how to create simple applications for my phone.
I don't plan on distributing anything that I attempt to make, this is mainly just something I'd like to try to learn.
Are there any good tutorials that I should read in order to get a proper introduction to BREW?
Also, if I am able to create an application does that application have to be digitally signed in order to load it onto the phone and run it?

3 weeks ago i had never even heard of BREW, but i recently got a new cell phone and have decided that i'd like to learn the workings of BREW and how to create simple applications for my phone.
I don't plan on distributing anything that I attempt to make, this is mainly just something I'd like to try to learn.
Are there any good tutorials that I should read in order to get a proper introduction to BREW?
Also, if I am able to create an application does that application have to be digitally signed in order to load it onto the phone and run it?

Welcome onboard to BREW!!!
First I'd encourge you to visit BREW Developers Extranet (http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/) for plentiful resources and information available to assist you with BREW developemnt. Go ahead and download the BREW SDK's and BREW tool suite which include documentions and tools you need to get things started.
As far as to run your app on the handsets, you need to first become an authenticated BREW developer.
(http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html)
Then you can send your handset in to QIS phone center to test-enable your phone. After that, you can go on to the testsig generator site to get the test sig for your app.
(https://brewx.qualcomm.com/testsig/testsig.jsp)
Once you have a test-enabled phone and the testsig, you'll be able to use BREW apploader to load your applications onto the handset and test out your application.
-Tony
BREW Support

Welcome onboard to BREW!!!
First I'd encourge you to visit BREW Developers Extranet (http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/) for plentiful resources and information available to assist you with BREW developemnt. Go ahead and download the BREW SDK's and BREW tool suite which include documentions and tools you need to get things started.
As far as to run your app on the handsets, you need to first become an authenticated BREW developer.
(http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html)
Then you can send your handset in to QIS phone center to test-enable your phone. After that, you can go on to the testsig generator site to get the test sig for your app.
(https://brewx.qualcomm.com/testsig/testsig.jsp)
Once you have a test-enabled phone and the testsig, you'll be able to use BREW apploader to load your applications onto the handset and test out your application.
-Tony
BREW Support

I have to buy a bundle for 100 programs that has a cost of $400 and expires in one year, just to play with my phone?

I have to buy a bundle for 100 programs that has a cost of $400 and expires in one year, just to play with my phone?

I've been poking around for some time, and I'm fairly certain what I want to do is not possible with my budget, but I figured I would ask before giving up. :)
I'm an independent hobbyist developer --- a (currently unemployed) M.S. of C.S. graduate student. A specific interest of mine is mobile and ubiquitous computing, and will almost certainly be the subfield in which I do my M.S. project.
I have quite a bit of experience racked up with embedded systems of various types, but the final frontier is my own, personal, Verizon cellphone.
I accept entirely the risk of damaging my phone, even permanently. Furthermore, although I am not entirely certain of this, I believe one of the mobile researchers at my school has access to my phone's PST, although he's not involved in any way with BREW development.
My budget for this is approximately $50, and I have no interest in attempting to sell or distribute my applications --- they would be entirely open source and mostly academic projects. I'd just like to be able to write small utilities for my phone.
Where do I go from here?

I've been poking around for some time, and I'm fairly certain what I want to do is not possible with my budget, but I figured I would ask before giving up. :)
I'm an independent hobbyist developer --- a (currently unemployed) M.S. of C.S. graduate student. A specific interest of mine is mobile and ubiquitous computing, and will almost certainly be the subfield in which I do my M.S. project.
I have quite a bit of experience racked up with embedded systems of various types, but the final frontier is my own, personal, Verizon cellphone.
I accept entirely the risk of damaging my phone, even permanently. Furthermore, although I am not entirely certain of this, I believe one of the mobile researchers at my school has access to my phone's PST, although he's not involved in any way with BREW development.
My budget for this is approximately $50, and I have no interest in attempting to sell or distribute my applications --- they would be entirely open source and mostly academic projects. I'd just like to be able to write small utilities for my phone.
Where do I go from here?

(This refers to a Motorola v3c with BREW 3.1.2, if that changes things)

(This refers to a Motorola v3c with BREW 3.1.2, if that changes things)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but BREW is not really set up for hobbyists.
In order to load your own applets on a device, you need a test-enabled signature for that device. These are only available to authenticated developers. Here is the process for becoming authenticated:
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html
Note that this requires paying a $400 fee to VeriSign.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but BREW is not really set up for hobbyists.
In order to load your own applets on a device, you need a test-enabled signature for that device. These are only available to authenticated developers. Here is the process for becoming authenticated:
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/developer/resources/gs/get_auth.html
Note that this requires paying a $400 fee to VeriSign.

That's what I was thinking. I have to spend 400$ just to test what I want on my phone? That was the dummiest thing I've ever heard.
That's why people are sticking with GSM and not CDMA. I will quit on this plan and phone and switch back to GSM. At least there I can test all my JAVA apps.
Shame on you qualcomm.

That's what I was thinking. I have to spend 400$ just to test what I want on my phone? That was the dummiest thing I've ever heard.
That's why people are sticking with GSM and not CDMA. I will quit on this plan and phone and switch back to GSM. At least there I can test all my JAVA apps.
Shame on you qualcomm.

I really think Qualcomm shud make BREW open source as soon as possible for it to really grow as the other languages on the mobile platform

I really think Qualcomm shud make BREW open source as soon as possible for it to really grow as the other languages on the mobile platform

None of the money goes to QUALCOMM. The money is paid to Verisign.

None of the money goes to QUALCOMM. The money is paid to Verisign.

Yes, we know the money do not go to Qualcomm.
But Qualcomm should make a difference between COMMERCIAL developers and PRIVATE developers. I just want to play with my phone. To see how smart were Qualcomm guys.
That's why I would suggest to Qualcomm to provide TEST certificates to private developers. This way they can test their applications and if they consider they want to go commercial they will do the investment.
But until there the developer should be able to generate a certificate of his own with an application from Qualcomm. Sign the application he has created with that certificate and publish it on his personal phone.
Seems very simple for me and would prove that Qualcomm supports small developers and most important, more developers will be curious to see what Qualcomm's platform offers over J2ME.

Yes, we know the money do not go to Qualcomm.
But Qualcomm should make a difference between COMMERCIAL developers and PRIVATE developers. I just want to play with my phone. To see how smart were Qualcomm guys.
That's why I would suggest to Qualcomm to provide TEST certificates to private developers. This way they can test their applications and if they consider they want to go commercial they will do the investment.
But until there the developer should be able to generate a certificate of his own with an application from Qualcomm. Sign the application he has created with that certificate and publish it on his personal phone.
Seems very simple for me and would prove that Qualcomm supports small developers and most important, more developers will be curious to see what Qualcomm's platform offers over J2ME.

All I need is SDK 3.1 to develop for the LG 8500? I want to write games. What do I need to get started? I tried downloading brew sdk 3.1 but I get sdk access error.
Thanks,
Erica

All I need is SDK 3.1 to develop for the LG 8500? I want to write games. What do I need to get started? I tried downloading brew sdk 3.1 but I get sdk access error.
Thanks,
Erica

All I need is SDK 3.1 to develop for the LG 8500? I want to write games. What do I need to get started? I tried downloading brew sdk 3.1 but I get sdk access error.
Thanks,
Erica

All I need is SDK 3.1 to develop for the LG 8500? I want to write games. What do I need to get started? I tried downloading brew sdk 3.1 but I get sdk access error.
Thanks,
Erica

Please search the forums. The topic of getting started has been addressed many times. If you're having a problem with access, you will need to contact BREW Support like the download page says.

Please search the forums. The topic of getting started has been addressed many times. If you're having a problem with access, you will need to contact BREW Support like the download page says.

All I need is SDK 3.1 to develop for the LG 8500? I want to write games. What do I need to get started? I tried downloading brew sdk 3.1 but I get sdk access error.
Thanks,
Erica

All I need is SDK 3.1 to develop for the LG 8500? I want to write games. What do I need to get started? I tried downloading brew sdk 3.1 but I get sdk access error.
Thanks,
Erica

Hi,
We are a new company wanting to develop BREW code and need to access Developer extranet.
Is it possible to access the extranet, without paying $400 for licensing ?
Sorry , it is not clear to me.
Thx
SJ

Hi,
We are a new company wanting to develop BREW code and need to access Developer extranet.
Is it possible to access the extranet, without paying $400 for licensing ?
Sorry , it is not clear to me.
Thx
SJ

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