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Bad News: Seems they are taking away my three free submitions by tommorow, ill package the stuff up and submit today.

Good News: Lower prices, 1000$ for first submition, 250$ for each additional handset.

Contacted Qualcomm and your Three Free Submitions WILL NOT
carry over past Nov.15th
Quote:
New TRUE BREW Testing Fee:

On Saturday, November 15 the fee structure for TRUE BREW Testing will change to
more accurately reflect the costs associated with testing an application that is
submitted for multiple handsets.

For any particular application submission, the new fee will be $1000 for the
first platform ID and $250 for each subsequent commercial handset platform ID or
$1000 for each subsequent pre-commercial handset you would like to have the
submission tested on. For example, if you submit an application for 2
pre-commercial handsets and 3 commercial handset platform IDs, then your total
testing fee will be $2,750 (2 x $1000 + 3 x $250). Any submissions made prior to
November 15 will be charged at the old rate ($1000 per application submission
irrespective of the handsets selected). Please note this also means the first
three submissions are no longer subsidized.

If you have any questions please feel free to contact your account manager.

Thank you.
BREW Developer Relations

already filed a complaint hoping to be able to keep my three unused submitions. We'll see how it goes.

already filed a complaint hoping to be able to keep my three unused submitions. We'll see how it goes.

Yeah, it's a drag the three submissions will no longer be subsidized, but you know what, I wouldn't want to complain, becasue at least the new cost structure is more accomodating when it comes to supporting a large number of handsets. It definitely seems to make much more sense than the previous cost structure which always seemed very much like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

Yeah, it's a drag the three submissions will no longer be subsidized, but you know what, I wouldn't want to complain, becasue at least the new cost structure is more accomodating when it comes to supporting a large number of handsets. It definitely seems to make much more sense than the previous cost structure which always seemed very much like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

Cool, a quick deadline. I work best under pressure anyway.
But seriously, the short notice is really unprofessional. I sure hope they will be there until late tonight to make sure the submission system does not go down...
And I sure hope that everyone got the same amount of notice.
I guess I should be prepared to wait like 2 or 3 hundred days after the large number of submissions they will get today...
Back to work....

Cool, a quick deadline. I work best under pressure anyway.
But seriously, the short notice is really unprofessional. I sure hope they will be there until late tonight to make sure the submission system does not go down...
And I sure hope that everyone got the same amount of notice.
I guess I should be prepared to wait like 2 or 3 hundred days after the large number of submissions they will get today...
Back to work....

Actually, I figured that was why they gave such short notice -- because they figured they wouldn't get as much last-minute inundation if they gave 12 hours notice than if they gave a week.

Actually, I figured that was why they gave such short notice -- because they figured they wouldn't get as much last-minute inundation if they gave 12 hours notice than if they gave a week.

At the same time, I don't think very many people will try to squeeze in now. Most will wait until the rates go down tomorrow. This really only affects those who have never submitted before and are currently eligible for the free submissions, which I think are only a handful of people. For everyone else the new cost structure is definitely the more desirable one.

At the same time, I don't think very many people will try to squeeze in now. Most will wait until the rates go down tomorrow. This really only affects those who have never submitted before and are currently eligible for the free submissions, which I think are only a handful of people. For everyone else the new cost structure is definitely the more desirable one.

Can you explain to me how you see this as a rate drop? Currently you can have any number of devices tested per build for 1K, right?

Can you explain to me how you see this as a rate drop? Currently you can have any number of devices tested per build for 1K, right?

This is not a price drop. This is an increase to stop people from clicking on every handset when they submit an app.

This is not a price drop. This is an increase to stop people from clicking on every handset when they submit an app.

It is only a rate drop if the $1000 for first handset, and $250 for each additional handset spans multiple submissions, and only if your application required multiple submissions.
Given the description posted, it isn't clear to me if that is true, or if it's only within a single submission, which would be a fairly serious rate hike.
I rather hope that this pricing spans multiple submissions, as that would allow us to better tune apps to the handsets for a reasonable fee. If it isn't, then this is a pretty major price increase.
The $1000 each for pre-release handsets rather sucks. Seems like that's a number the carriers should be eating in order to get apps out on their handsets at launch, but what can ya do. I guess you have to ask yourself if it's worth an extra $750 to have your apps out the day the handset ships, and, well, I guess it probably is.
Tom

It is only a rate drop if the $1000 for first handset, and $250 for each additional handset spans multiple submissions, and only if your application required multiple submissions.
Given the description posted, it isn't clear to me if that is true, or if it's only within a single submission, which would be a fairly serious rate hike.
I rather hope that this pricing spans multiple submissions, as that would allow us to better tune apps to the handsets for a reasonable fee. If it isn't, then this is a pretty major price increase.
The $1000 each for pre-release handsets rather sucks. Seems like that's a number the carriers should be eating in order to get apps out on their handsets at launch, but what can ya do. I guess you have to ask yourself if it's worth an extra $750 to have your apps out the day the handset ships, and, well, I guess it probably is.
Tom

I knew something like this was going to happen. For my last app, the single exectuable ran on like 12-13 different handsets. So it went from free (pre price-change), to $1000 to test on like a dozen devices. I didn't see how that covered any costs for NSTL. :)
$250 a pop raises my testing costs significantly. Especially because there are so many handsets now.
The real problem is that from what I see, it costs $1,000 for the first plaform ID PER SUBMISSION. Meaning you can't make multiple submissions--because each submission will cost you $1,000. But, each additional platform ID in that submission will cost $250. So if a new phone comes out 6 months from now and you want to submit a build...that will cost you $1,000--not $250.
But $1,000 for pre-commercial? That's totally outrageous. Especially for handsets like the Samsung 60X devices which are virtually the same as the 530...hell, they shouldn't even charge to test on those.
Why does it cost more to test on a pre-commercial? Probably because there are so many of them, they don't want people clicking on a zillion pre-commercial handsets. I'm sure once all those pre-commercial phones become commercial and there are something like 25 commercial handsets, NSTL will make those $1,000 too.
So in the end, nothing has changed. It's still $1,000 a submission. But an additional $250/$1000 for every additional platform you check off when you submit.
I wonder what fantastic pricing structure changes NSTL has in store for the future.

I knew something like this was going to happen. For my last app, the single exectuable ran on like 12-13 different handsets. So it went from free (pre price-change), to $1000 to test on like a dozen devices. I didn't see how that covered any costs for NSTL. :)
$250 a pop raises my testing costs significantly. Especially because there are so many handsets now.
The real problem is that from what I see, it costs $1,000 for the first plaform ID PER SUBMISSION. Meaning you can't make multiple submissions--because each submission will cost you $1,000. But, each additional platform ID in that submission will cost $250. So if a new phone comes out 6 months from now and you want to submit a build...that will cost you $1,000--not $250.
But $1,000 for pre-commercial? That's totally outrageous. Especially for handsets like the Samsung 60X devices which are virtually the same as the 530...hell, they shouldn't even charge to test on those.
Why does it cost more to test on a pre-commercial? Probably because there are so many of them, they don't want people clicking on a zillion pre-commercial handsets. I'm sure once all those pre-commercial phones become commercial and there are something like 25 commercial handsets, NSTL will make those $1,000 too.
So in the end, nothing has changed. It's still $1,000 a submission. But an additional $250/$1000 for every additional platform you check off when you submit.
I wonder what fantastic pricing structure changes NSTL has in store for the future.

That's evidently one way to look at it. It works very differently in my cases.
I only do specialized builds for each handset. With a few excpetions it is simply not feasible for me to create a MOD/BAR/MIF combination that runs on multiple handsets because it wreaks havoc with your code maintenance, stability and portability. If you ever go back to add a new handset to such a code base you're more likely to break all your previous ones than do any good in such a scenario, and you will have to do A LOT more testing to make sure your new handset is affected by some weird assumptions you or another programmer made a long time ago and hid somehwere in the depths of the code. It is just not a practical approach when you look at it long term.
As such if I wanted to support 20 handsets, my price would have been $20,000 to get them certified. With the new cost structure I'm looking at something in the neighborhood of $3250 which is a SIGNIFICANT price reduction in my book. Those are best/worst case scenarios and the reality lies somewhere in between, of course, but it gives me a bit more peace of mind becasue it warrants doing specialized builds for handsets now, which does vastly increase your chances of properly supporting each handset's features and bugs rather than approximating its capabilities.
Of course all of this does not take into consideration when you have to submit apps in stages, when you want to support pre-commercial handsets, etc. That is a different story entirely. I only wish some general common sense would be applied to these cost structures instead of these seemingly quick fixes that seem more designed to be band aids over NSTL's monetary holes rather than sensible cost structures.

That's evidently one way to look at it. It works very differently in my cases.
I only do specialized builds for each handset. With a few excpetions it is simply not feasible for me to create a MOD/BAR/MIF combination that runs on multiple handsets because it wreaks havoc with your code maintenance, stability and portability. If you ever go back to add a new handset to such a code base you're more likely to break all your previous ones than do any good in such a scenario, and you will have to do A LOT more testing to make sure your new handset is affected by some weird assumptions you or another programmer made a long time ago and hid somehwere in the depths of the code. It is just not a practical approach when you look at it long term.
As such if I wanted to support 20 handsets, my price would have been $20,000 to get them certified. With the new cost structure I'm looking at something in the neighborhood of $3250 which is a SIGNIFICANT price reduction in my book. Those are best/worst case scenarios and the reality lies somewhere in between, of course, but it gives me a bit more peace of mind becasue it warrants doing specialized builds for handsets now, which does vastly increase your chances of properly supporting each handset's features and bugs rather than approximating its capabilities.
Of course all of this does not take into consideration when you have to submit apps in stages, when you want to support pre-commercial handsets, etc. That is a different story entirely. I only wish some general common sense would be applied to these cost structures instead of these seemingly quick fixes that seem more designed to be band aids over NSTL's monetary holes rather than sensible cost structures.

It will still cost you $20,000 because it's $1,000 for the first platform ID of every submission as I read it. It's only the additional platforms on each submission that are $250. Unless I'm wrong.

It will still cost you $20,000 because it's $1,000 for the first platform ID of every submission as I read it. It's only the additional platforms on each submission that are $250. Unless I'm wrong.

new pricing seems to be better i think for the reason dragon explained.
but v---- is me =(, thats why i bitched. i have 3000$ worth of submitions to submit by the end of today, if they fail, i dont care...didnt cost me anything ^_^. I'm going to submit 3 different times each with a different handset, and see what passes and what fails.
Quote:Originally posted by Dragon
At the same time, I don't think very many people will try to squeeze in now. Most will wait until the rates go down tomorrow. This really only affects those who have never submitted before and are currently eligible for the free submissions, which I think are only a handful of people. For everyone else the new cost structure is definitely the more desirable one.
edit:
I emailed and phoned them today, and guess what, still waiting for a responce! I'm sure i will get sometime tommorow
after the deadline is passed.

new pricing seems to be better i think for the reason dragon explained.
but v---- is me =(, thats why i bitched. i have 3000$ worth of submitions to submit by the end of today, if they fail, i dont care...didnt cost me anything ^_^. I'm going to submit 3 different times each with a different handset, and see what passes and what fails.
Quote:Originally posted by Dragon
At the same time, I don't think very many people will try to squeeze in now. Most will wait until the rates go down tomorrow. This really only affects those who have never submitted before and are currently eligible for the free submissions, which I think are only a handful of people. For everyone else the new cost structure is definitely the more desirable one.
edit:
I emailed and phoned them today, and guess what, still waiting for a responce! I'm sure i will get sometime tommorow
after the deadline is passed.

Can someone help me ASAP, im trying to submit my application for testing right as i type this, Where is the ""Free Submission" check box? I remember seeing it before, yet can't seem to find it today. Can someone confirm that it's gone, and if not can you tell me where it is?

Can someone help me ASAP, im trying to submit my application for testing right as i type this, Where is the ""Free Submission" check box? I remember seeing it before, yet can't seem to find it today. Can someone confirm that it's gone, and if not can you tell me where it is?

i was just on the phone with BREW developer tech support, and they refused to help me =(. I emailed eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%64%65%76%2d%72%65%6c%61%74%69%6f%6e%73%2d%63%6f%6d%6d%40%71%75%61%6c%63%6f%6d%6d%2e%63%6f%6d%22%20%63%6c%61%73%73%3d%22%62%62%2d%65%6d%61%69%6c%22%3e%64%65%76%2d%72%65%6c%61%74%69%6f%6e%73%2d%63%6f%6d%6d%40%71%75%61%6c%63%6f%6d%6d%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')) and left messages on my account manager's voice mail already today at around 9:30-10am. It's now 4:30 pm and i have yet to hear from anyone.
I just got off the phone with Vince at BREW developer tech support and he refused to forward me to my account manager when i asked. He wouldn't even give me his name when i asked the first 2 times. Vince talked to one of the accounts managers and was advised that the account managers don't deal with individual problems? Who is then?
He mentioned to mail tech support on the BREW page, but they never respond within 1 day and that is why i phoned.
It seems i am getting the round about, and im sure this will all be cleared up by monday, when i can't submit my applications at the subsidized prices.
It seems the subsidised button is gone from the NSTL page. see attached.
I don't know what else to do. I've wasted an intire work day trying to get this application ready for submition and it seems it was all for nothing.

i was just on the phone with BREW developer tech support, and they refused to help me =(. I emailed eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%64%65%76%2d%72%65%6c%61%74%69%6f%6e%73%2d%63%6f%6d%6d%40%71%75%61%6c%63%6f%6d%6d%2e%63%6f%6d%22%20%63%6c%61%73%73%3d%22%62%62%2d%65%6d%61%69%6c%22%3e%64%65%76%2d%72%65%6c%61%74%69%6f%6e%73%2d%63%6f%6d%6d%40%71%75%61%6c%63%6f%6d%6d%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')) and left messages on my account manager's voice mail already today at around 9:30-10am. It's now 4:30 pm and i have yet to hear from anyone.
I just got off the phone with Vince at BREW developer tech support and he refused to forward me to my account manager when i asked. He wouldn't even give me his name when i asked the first 2 times. Vince talked to one of the accounts managers and was advised that the account managers don't deal with individual problems? Who is then?
He mentioned to mail tech support on the BREW page, but they never respond within 1 day and that is why i phoned.
It seems i am getting the round about, and im sure this will all be cleared up by monday, when i can't submit my applications at the subsidized prices.
It seems the subsidised button is gone from the NSTL page. see attached.
I don't know what else to do. I've wasted an intire work day trying to get this application ready for submition and it seems it was all for nothing.

someone PMed and told me that the combo box on the submition page at the NSTL has been gone for a while, but you still could get the free submitions if you contacted them or something like that. I wish qualcomm would have told me this when i phoned them asking directly "how can i submit my application under the subsidized program that you guys are offering until tommorow?"
Qualcomm told me this was not posible and to email tech support and get an SR number, which i did.
NSTL was alot better, they responded quite quickly and asked for my phone number where they could contact me. This is the kind of customer service i expect.

someone PMed and told me that the combo box on the submition page at the NSTL has been gone for a while, but you still could get the free submitions if you contacted them or something like that. I wish qualcomm would have told me this when i phoned them asking directly "how can i submit my application under the subsidized program that you guys are offering until tommorow?"
Qualcomm told me this was not posible and to email tech support and get an SR number, which i did.
NSTL was alot better, they responded quite quickly and asked for my phone number where they could contact me. This is the kind of customer service i expect.

Quote:Originally posted by flarb
It will still cost you $20,000 because it's $1,000 for the first platform ID of every submission as I read it. It's only the additional platforms on each submission that are $250. Unless I'm wrong. I also thought this way, until Dragon posted his thoughts. Does the new pricing system means that we can submit different MIF/MOD/BAR files for the same application for different platforms (or at least different MIF/BAR files)? I would agree with Dragon that it's maintanence nightmare to add additional headset/platform support into the executable.
Anyone has more details on that?

Quote:Originally posted by flarb
It will still cost you $20,000 because it's $1,000 for the first platform ID of every submission as I read it. It's only the additional platforms on each submission that are $250. Unless I'm wrong. I also thought this way, until Dragon posted his thoughts. Does the new pricing system means that we can submit different MIF/MOD/BAR files for the same application for different platforms (or at least different MIF/BAR files)? I would agree with Dragon that it's maintanence nightmare to add additional headset/platform support into the executable.
Anyone has more details on that?

Quote:Originally posted by j0rd
someone PMed and told me that the combo box on the submition page at the NSTL has been gone for a while, but you still could get the free submitions if you contacted them or something like that. I wish qualcomm would have told me this when i phoned them asking directly "how can i submit my application under the subsidized program that you guys are offering until tommorow?"
Qualcomm told me this was not posible and to email tech support and get an SR number, which i did.
NSTL was alot better, they responded quite quickly and asked for my phone number where they could contact me. This is the kind of customer service i expect.
I could not get any support from them yesterday.
I was unable to get the pre-commercial submissions
working, as "Add Platform" was not correctly appearing.
They have not been answering their phones or emails since at least 9pm yesterday.
So, you can understand, I have a different take on their current support.
This was a throw it up, and run and hide manuever that doesn't sit well with me. Especially with having current submissions in there for over 115 days now from the previous pricing "experience". Where the estimate given to me was 12 days.

Quote:Originally posted by j0rd
someone PMed and told me that the combo box on the submition page at the NSTL has been gone for a while, but you still could get the free submitions if you contacted them or something like that. I wish qualcomm would have told me this when i phoned them asking directly "how can i submit my application under the subsidized program that you guys are offering until tommorow?"
Qualcomm told me this was not posible and to email tech support and get an SR number, which i did.
NSTL was alot better, they responded quite quickly and asked for my phone number where they could contact me. This is the kind of customer service i expect.
I could not get any support from them yesterday.
I was unable to get the pre-commercial submissions
working, as "Add Platform" was not correctly appearing.
They have not been answering their phones or emails since at least 9pm yesterday.
So, you can understand, I have a different take on their current support.
This was a throw it up, and run and hide manuever that doesn't sit well with me. Especially with having current submissions in there for over 115 days now from the previous pricing "experience". Where the estimate given to me was 12 days.

Quote:Originally posted by Flarb
It will still cost you $20,000 because it's $1,000 for the first platform ID of every submission as I read it. It's only the additional platforms on each submission that are $250. Unless I'm wrong.
Quote:Originally posted by ThePhoneWiz
Does the new pricing system means that we can submit different MIF/MOD/BAR files for the same application for different platforms
I think Flarb is correct. I don't believe they've done anything with the definition of what constitutes a submission -- it's still a MOD/MIF/BAR combination. In other words, if you do anything with the MOD, MIF, or BAR, you have to re-sign it and do another submission. Assuming you only submit for commercial handsets, you will get dinged a thousand bucks for the first handset in that submission, plus $250 for each additional handset in that submission.
I agree that the way this was foisted on developers carries a nasty odour but, realistically, what else could they do? The last time they did the right thing and gave everyone fair notice of the change, they were inundated with a flood of submissions that clogged the system for months. We all know how popular the increased waiting times were.
I'm saying that they were damned either way; provide everyone with notice, get a flood of submissions and take flak for the increased waiting times or give no notice and take flak for that decision. I suspect the latter was chosen for practical reasons, most likely the difficulty associated with staffing NSTL for a temporary surge in demand forced their hand.
Given the success of the BREW platform, I think we all knew that the subsidized testing would come to an end at some point. Regardless of when they did it, someone was bound to get hurt, and I feel sorry for the ones that got caught in the net.

Quote:Originally posted by Flarb
It will still cost you $20,000 because it's $1,000 for the first platform ID of every submission as I read it. It's only the additional platforms on each submission that are $250. Unless I'm wrong.
Quote:Originally posted by ThePhoneWiz
Does the new pricing system means that we can submit different MIF/MOD/BAR files for the same application for different platforms
I think Flarb is correct. I don't believe they've done anything with the definition of what constitutes a submission -- it's still a MOD/MIF/BAR combination. In other words, if you do anything with the MOD, MIF, or BAR, you have to re-sign it and do another submission. Assuming you only submit for commercial handsets, you will get dinged a thousand bucks for the first handset in that submission, plus $250 for each additional handset in that submission.
I agree that the way this was foisted on developers carries a nasty odour but, realistically, what else could they do? The last time they did the right thing and gave everyone fair notice of the change, they were inundated with a flood of submissions that clogged the system for months. We all know how popular the increased waiting times were.
I'm saying that they were damned either way; provide everyone with notice, get a flood of submissions and take flak for the increased waiting times or give no notice and take flak for that decision. I suspect the latter was chosen for practical reasons, most likely the difficulty associated with staffing NSTL for a temporary surge in demand forced their hand.
Given the success of the BREW platform, I think we all knew that the subsidized testing would come to an end at some point. Regardless of when they did it, someone was bound to get hurt, and I feel sorry for the ones that got caught in the net.

Well, the more I think about it and the more often I read Qualcomm's original email, I think my initial assumption was incorrect. The new price structure is essentially the old one, with $250 per additional handset in bulk submissions tagged on top of it, just the way Flarb described it.
Too bad, really, I had hoped that someone would recognize the flaw in that system and the burden it imposes on developers, trying to drive people to make one-size-fits-all type of applications in a domain where not even the initiator is willing to create some sort of standardization. I do not believe it serves the format very well and will only dramatically increase the failure rates of applications.

Well, the more I think about it and the more often I read Qualcomm's original email, I think my initial assumption was incorrect. The new price structure is essentially the old one, with $250 per additional handset in bulk submissions tagged on top of it, just the way Flarb described it.
Too bad, really, I had hoped that someone would recognize the flaw in that system and the burden it imposes on developers, trying to drive people to make one-size-fits-all type of applications in a domain where not even the initiator is willing to create some sort of standardization. I do not believe it serves the format very well and will only dramatically increase the failure rates of applications.

Instead of all this speculation, why not wait and find out what the new policy really means? And ... shame on Qualcomm for not making it clearer.
If you know someone who knows someone at Qualcomm, get them to find out if the $250 for each new handset spans multiple submissions or not and post back here. If it doesn't we can blast Qualcomm. If it does, we can cheer them. Until then, it's just mental masturbation.
Tom

Instead of all this speculation, why not wait and find out what the new policy really means? And ... shame on Qualcomm for not making it clearer.
If you know someone who knows someone at Qualcomm, get them to find out if the $250 for each new handset spans multiple submissions or not and post back here. If it doesn't we can blast Qualcomm. If it does, we can cheer them. Until then, it's just mental masturbation.
Tom

Quote:by Dragon: ... I had hoped that someone would recognize the flaw in that system and the burden it imposes on developers, trying to drive people to make one-size-fits-all type of applications in a domain where not even the initiator is willing to create some sort of standardization. I do not believe it serves the format very well and will only dramatically increase the failure rates of applications.I couldn't agree more! If there is no more subsidizing on additional headsets, but additional $250 per headset, that would be something I would welcome the most. This would stop the mess with all that branching and resizing so "one BAR fits 'em all" would finaly come to its end.

Quote:by Dragon: ... I had hoped that someone would recognize the flaw in that system and the burden it imposes on developers, trying to drive people to make one-size-fits-all type of applications in a domain where not even the initiator is willing to create some sort of standardization. I do not believe it serves the format very well and will only dramatically increase the failure rates of applications.I couldn't agree more! If there is no more subsidizing on additional headsets, but additional $250 per headset, that would be something I would welcome the most. This would stop the mess with all that branching and resizing so "one BAR fits 'em all" would finaly come to its end.

$250 per handset flat would be ok I guess. But $1,000 for pre-commercial is just outrageous. It's not like it's any more work to test on a pre-commercial handset.

$250 per handset flat would be ok I guess. But $1,000 for pre-commercial is just outrageous. It's not like it's any more work to test on a pre-commercial handset.

Quote:Originally posted by flarb
$250 per handset flat would be ok I guess. But $1,000 for pre-commercial is just outrageous. It's not like it's any more work to test on a pre-commercial handset.
I may be mistaken, but I thought pre-commercial handsets had to retest all submitted apps for every revision of the handset. This might explain why it would cost more.

Quote:Originally posted by flarb
$250 per handset flat would be ok I guess. But $1,000 for pre-commercial is just outrageous. It's not like it's any more work to test on a pre-commercial handset.
I may be mistaken, but I thought pre-commercial handsets had to retest all submitted apps for every revision of the handset. This might explain why it would cost more.

I think the only reason why they are charging $1,000 for pre-commercial is because there are more pre-commercial handsets than commercial ones right now. And they want to prevent people form just clicking on a zillion pre-commercials that they think their app will pass on. Also they probably only have 1 or 2 of those handsets as opposed to tons of the other ones (since the others are commercially available).
As far as I know, NSTL only tests your pre-commercial app on one firmware revision (often times it's not the one that the carrier ends up using either).

I think the only reason why they are charging $1,000 for pre-commercial is because there are more pre-commercial handsets than commercial ones right now. And they want to prevent people form just clicking on a zillion pre-commercials that they think their app will pass on. Also they probably only have 1 or 2 of those handsets as opposed to tons of the other ones (since the others are commercially available).
As far as I know, NSTL only tests your pre-commercial app on one firmware revision (often times it's not the one that the carrier ends up using either).

Quote:Originally posted by flarb
I think the only reason why they are charging $1,000 for pre-commercial is because there are more pre-commercial handsets than commercial ones right now. And they want to prevent people form just clicking on a zillion pre-commercials that they think their app will pass on. Also they probably only have 1 or 2 of those handsets as opposed to tons of the other ones (since the others are commercially available).
As far as I know, NSTL only tests your pre-commercial app on one firmware revision (often times it's not the one that the carrier ends up using either).
So perhaps they should just only allow pre-commercial submissions for apps that have allready passed on more than one commercial handset.
BTW when I last submitted, you could not simply check each precommercial handset, but you had to make a seperate submission entry for each one. This is why we were not able to get our pre-commercials submitted on Friday, because "Add Platform" was not correctly showing up on their website.
If I had known I could have just checked each one, well, c'est la vie I guess...

Quote:Originally posted by flarb
I think the only reason why they are charging $1,000 for pre-commercial is because there are more pre-commercial handsets than commercial ones right now. And they want to prevent people form just clicking on a zillion pre-commercials that they think their app will pass on. Also they probably only have 1 or 2 of those handsets as opposed to tons of the other ones (since the others are commercially available).
As far as I know, NSTL only tests your pre-commercial app on one firmware revision (often times it's not the one that the carrier ends up using either).
So perhaps they should just only allow pre-commercial submissions for apps that have allready passed on more than one commercial handset.
BTW when I last submitted, you could not simply check each precommercial handset, but you had to make a seperate submission entry for each one. This is why we were not able to get our pre-commercials submitted on Friday, because "Add Platform" was not correctly showing up on their website.
If I had known I could have just checked each one, well, c'est la vie I guess...

I really wish Qualcomm would find another testing lab to compete with NSTL so the normal market forces could make SOMEONE come up with a reasonable pricing scheme that doesn't change every 3 months. As it is, we have no choice but to accept NSTL's fee changes, delays, etc. etc. All of this complaining does nothing when they are the only ones to go to.
With all the new handsets coming out, testing is going to become a MAJOR expense. And it's really hard to even predict your expensies as they seem to change the pricing scheme every quarter. Especially when they change it with 1 day's notice.

I really wish Qualcomm would find another testing lab to compete with NSTL so the normal market forces could make SOMEONE come up with a reasonable pricing scheme that doesn't change every 3 months. As it is, we have no choice but to accept NSTL's fee changes, delays, etc. etc. All of this complaining does nothing when they are the only ones to go to.
With all the new handsets coming out, testing is going to become a MAJOR expense. And it's really hard to even predict your expensies as they seem to change the pricing scheme every quarter. Especially when they change it with 1 day's notice.

I'm not quite sure how the new pricing scheme reflects the actual costs of testing. Presumably, its easier to test something on two phones than it is on one phone, because you are allowed to reuse some of the testing procedure.
But if its really 1/4 the cost to retest on a second phone, why don't you get that if you test at a later time? That makes a lot of sense if a new phone comes out in 3 months after your application is released...if you've written so well that it doesn't need to be ported to run on that phone, so the .bar and .mod don't have to change, clearly NSTL has an easier time.
I don't mind them getting rid of the free 3 tests, because I always thought that was rewarding newcomers at the expense of developers who've been with BREW a long time and have been making Qualcomm money.
Also, there is currently no place on either NSTL or Qualcomm's website to read any of this new pricing info. In fact, from reading Qualcomm's site it almost sounds like the testing is free! Does anyone have a link that states the policy?
This new testing policy also significantly widens the cost/risk gap between developing for J2ME and developing for BREW.
-Aaron

I'm not quite sure how the new pricing scheme reflects the actual costs of testing. Presumably, its easier to test something on two phones than it is on one phone, because you are allowed to reuse some of the testing procedure.
But if its really 1/4 the cost to retest on a second phone, why don't you get that if you test at a later time? That makes a lot of sense if a new phone comes out in 3 months after your application is released...if you've written so well that it doesn't need to be ported to run on that phone, so the .bar and .mod don't have to change, clearly NSTL has an easier time.
I don't mind them getting rid of the free 3 tests, because I always thought that was rewarding newcomers at the expense of developers who've been with BREW a long time and have been making Qualcomm money.
Also, there is currently no place on either NSTL or Qualcomm's website to read any of this new pricing info. In fact, from reading Qualcomm's site it almost sounds like the testing is free! Does anyone have a link that states the policy?
This new testing policy also significantly widens the cost/risk gap between developing for J2ME and developing for BREW.
-Aaron

Just relaying some info for you guys...
I talked to my rep at Qualcomm today, and he told me that the pricing change is $1000 for the first handset, and $250 for each additional handset with the same .mod and .bar file. So no changes are allowed for the subsequent tests, otherwise they have to do a full test which incurs the $1000 fee.
Also, pre-commecrials are $1000 each because since it is a new phone, they have to do a full test, and cannot do the abbreviated test that would only cost $250.00
What this change reflects, is a discontinuing of Qualcomm paying for the additional handset testing fees when you submit one mod and bar for multiple handsets. Realistically, they were paying alot of money to subsidize these tests, so it does make sense that this would be discontinued eventually. They also had alot of people submitting apps for the wrong language, etc, which has been clogging up the system with apps that were never indended to run on the 'checked' handset.
So if your mod and bar files work on many phones, and a new commercial one comes out, you should be able to do that single test for $250.00 (if you use the same .mod and .bar that were submitted previously).
It seems there is still an advantage in architecting things to run across multiple phones if that stategy works for you.
Also..there were a hundred or so submissions on Friday, so I would guess we should be prepared for another round of delays..
Happy coding my friends...
:D
---jeff

Just relaying some info for you guys...
I talked to my rep at Qualcomm today, and he told me that the pricing change is $1000 for the first handset, and $250 for each additional handset with the same .mod and .bar file. So no changes are allowed for the subsequent tests, otherwise they have to do a full test which incurs the $1000 fee.
Also, pre-commecrials are $1000 each because since it is a new phone, they have to do a full test, and cannot do the abbreviated test that would only cost $250.00
What this change reflects, is a discontinuing of Qualcomm paying for the additional handset testing fees when you submit one mod and bar for multiple handsets. Realistically, they were paying alot of money to subsidize these tests, so it does make sense that this would be discontinued eventually. They also had alot of people submitting apps for the wrong language, etc, which has been clogging up the system with apps that were never indended to run on the 'checked' handset.
So if your mod and bar files work on many phones, and a new commercial one comes out, you should be able to do that single test for $250.00 (if you use the same .mod and .bar that were submitted previously).
It seems there is still an advantage in architecting things to run across multiple phones if that stategy works for you.
Also..there were a hundred or so submissions on Friday, so I would guess we should be prepared for another round of delays..
Happy coding my friends...
:D
---jeff

I dunno, I think they should pay a lot of money to subsidize the tests. After all, we give them %20 of the DAP. They should do something with it.
I guess I won't be supporting any more pre-commecial handsets.

I dunno, I think they should pay a lot of money to subsidize the tests. After all, we give them %20 of the DAP. They should do something with it.
I guess I won't be supporting any more pre-commecial handsets.

the only thing that bothers me is that they keep changing either the policy or prices for testing when ever they see fit. can you say make up your own rules as we play? bully in a way, can't really do anything about it, as they monopolize the market for BREW testing. this is just wrong...

the only thing that bothers me is that they keep changing either the policy or prices for testing when ever they see fit. can you say make up your own rules as we play? bully in a way, can't really do anything about it, as they monopolize the market for BREW testing. this is just wrong...

no media attention comes from it, if someone made a stink, maybe they would play nice. or at least think twice.
I when i read the mail the first time i thought it was going to be a good change, but it seems to have no benifit for the developers. I've still yet to hear from anyone at qualcomm.

no media attention comes from it, if someone made a stink, maybe they would play nice. or at least think twice.
I when i read the mail the first time i thought it was going to be a good change, but it seems to have no benifit for the developers. I've still yet to hear from anyone at qualcomm.

They don't have to play nice because there is no alternative. It doesn't matter how many people get up in arms about it--if you want at this market, there's nowhere else to go.
I'm surprised the larger publishers haven't made an issue of this. Knowing from personal experience how cheap they are, I severely doubt they'll pay $20,000 in certification fees to get a game on 20 handsets. Although something tells me larger publishers demand their testing fees to be subsidized in order to support the platform.
These testing fee structures are totally short sighted--as the number of handsets balloons, even $250 a pop becomes rather expensive. Either find a testing fee structure that we can all agree on, introduce some competition in this space (and DON'T make it a publisher's QA department), or finally standardize BREW so we don't need extensive handset tests.

They don't have to play nice because there is no alternative. It doesn't matter how many people get up in arms about it--if you want at this market, there's nowhere else to go.
I'm surprised the larger publishers haven't made an issue of this. Knowing from personal experience how cheap they are, I severely doubt they'll pay $20,000 in certification fees to get a game on 20 handsets. Although something tells me larger publishers demand their testing fees to be subsidized in order to support the platform.
These testing fee structures are totally short sighted--as the number of handsets balloons, even $250 a pop becomes rather expensive. Either find a testing fee structure that we can all agree on, introduce some competition in this space (and DON'T make it a publisher's QA department), or finally standardize BREW so we don't need extensive handset tests.

I've had this discussion with someone else over the weekend as well and honestly, I do not believe that someone like Jamdat is actually affected by these changes. No one can tell me that Jamdat would tolerate their certification rates per title going from $0 to somewhere around $20,000.- without a fight. You would definitely hear from them. So what does that tell me? I believe that companies like Jamdat do get VERY special treatment here. Either Qualcomm or the carriers subsidize their submissions. Since a huge portion of Jamdat's certifications are on pre-commerical handsets these days no one can tell me that they just put up with these increased price tags out of the blue. Not in a thousand years would I believe that. Fair play? Yeah, right...

I've had this discussion with someone else over the weekend as well and honestly, I do not believe that someone like Jamdat is actually affected by these changes. No one can tell me that Jamdat would tolerate their certification rates per title going from $0 to somewhere around $20,000.- without a fight. You would definitely hear from them. So what does that tell me? I believe that companies like Jamdat do get VERY special treatment here. Either Qualcomm or the carriers subsidize their submissions. Since a huge portion of Jamdat's certifications are on pre-commerical handsets these days no one can tell me that they just put up with these increased price tags out of the blue. Not in a thousand years would I believe that. Fair play? Yeah, right...

Can we get someone from Qualcomm, who works on certifications with NSTL on this thread? I have emailed dev support about those fees and possiblity of modifying how they are applied, but got no answer yet.

Can we get someone from Qualcomm, who works on certifications with NSTL on this thread? I have emailed dev support about those fees and possiblity of modifying how they are applied, but got no answer yet.

Does anyone have any information/experiences on testing procedures handled by other platforms besides BREW?

Does anyone have any information/experiences on testing procedures handled by other platforms besides BREW?

I seriously doubt Jamdat gets different pricing (well, the discount of 10% for being a premiere developer, but that is probably it). I believe the point is more, they have high visibility and a game can make them a million dollars, hard to get too excited over the changes.
Aside from that, the new change doesn't affect a lot of folks since it is very common to have to target each phone. Heck, we just make ringtones but we end up submitting each phone seperately - so we have always paid $1000. The last big change meant they didn't charge more for using things like TAPI - this has saved us thousands of dollars.
I believe it boils down to Qualcomm no longer has to subsidize developers as the market is not just maturing, it is getting very crowded.
Just my $.02...
Curt

I seriously doubt Jamdat gets different pricing (well, the discount of 10% for being a premiere developer, but that is probably it). I believe the point is more, they have high visibility and a game can make them a million dollars, hard to get too excited over the changes.
Aside from that, the new change doesn't affect a lot of folks since it is very common to have to target each phone. Heck, we just make ringtones but we end up submitting each phone seperately - so we have always paid $1000. The last big change meant they didn't charge more for using things like TAPI - this has saved us thousands of dollars.
I believe it boils down to Qualcomm no longer has to subsidize developers as the market is not just maturing, it is getting very crowded.
Just my $.02...
Curt

I submitted on the 6th and noticed that the FREE submission button was missing too. I wrote in the comments that this was my first free submission and to please not charge my credit card the $1000 (which by the way they require to submit). I didn't get charged.
With the exception of like three handsets, we passed on all the others, hip hip horray!
We are now working on our second title, which is coming along nicely.
In terms of support, response, organization, representation, etc.. Qualcomm ranks poorly in my book. I sure hope they straighten up, there are a lot of competitors begging for developer attention these days.

I submitted on the 6th and noticed that the FREE submission button was missing too. I wrote in the comments that this was my first free submission and to please not charge my credit card the $1000 (which by the way they require to submit). I didn't get charged.
With the exception of like three handsets, we passed on all the others, hip hip horray!
We are now working on our second title, which is coming along nicely.
In terms of support, response, organization, representation, etc.. Qualcomm ranks poorly in my book. I sure hope they straighten up, there are a lot of competitors begging for developer attention these days.

As a quick FYI - they do not bill in "realtime" - you may want to followup as often the charge is not done for quite some time after you submit.
Curt

As a quick FYI - they do not bill in "realtime" - you may want to followup as often the charge is not done for quite some time after you submit.
Curt